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Show here your Greek warrior impression
Hi Giannis, I wouldn’t base a cup of coffee on an Osprey book. However I have no problem with the scabbard mouth enclosing part of the sword handle, like a reverse langet. I took the short sword and the cavalry kopis and rebuild both scabbards, using fake bone/ivory for the scabbard fittings. Frankly they are not worth real ivory.

The kopis takes a real hammering and the fake ivory chips easily. But so far so good. Superglue is great and it doesn’t take long to make new plates.
But the short sword is an interesting weapon to scabbard. I like the way you can hold it inside the shield, as in the relief of Rhynchon. Which is as well because the sword is very hilt heavy, and the balance point is currently close to the top of the scabbard. I suspect I may use a lead filled chape on the bottom of the scabbard to ensure it hangs vertically.

I enjoy portraying Greek and Hellenistic soldiers without armour and helmet crests. I suspect we all have a tendency to dress as officers, not soldiers. Not criticism intended. But is that is a girlie spear you are carrying? Or are you just very tall?

Just kidding. Big Grin
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

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Heh! I'm a young Aristocrat of the old school myself. At the time when men wanted to be really close to the enemy! That's why my spear is a tad short,compared to those modern jumping poles :twisted:
I'm not tall,just 1.78m and my spear is about 2,3m.
There are those re-enactors that want to dress as officers or Aristocrats in one day. It's virtually impossible,since it comes too expensive and even if you have money,the waiting lists of the good armourers are usually around 3 years long! Then there are those that start as poor hoplites,and a few of them manage to portray a rather convincing impression. And with time they build up. This is perhaps the best way to go.
I decided that it might take much time but i will re-enact an aristocrat youth of the end of 6th-beginning of 5th century bc. And here i am,more than 5 years after i started, not having a shield,or greaves,and still wanting to replace some other things.
I'm also planning on building a parallel impression of a lighter hoplite of the later 5th century. And my ultimate goal will be a cataphract hoplite of the middle 6th century.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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Good answer!

It is much better to portray low status well than high status badly. The public are always impressed by the sheer colour and display involved in Greek defensive equipment, but need to be educated in an entertaining way.

It is noticeable that many re-enactors favour the period of the Persian Wars, over the great war between Athens and Sparta, or the period of Macedonian supremacy. I don't fully understand why.

If anything my photos display a soldier from the second half of the 5th century. The dory is 3.15m long, which a little too long. But I can cope, and I have others. The head would be a little old fashioned by then but I love it. It is an old African hunting head, made for killing lions. The shield cover and stand are a nice touch, and the pilos and soft kit are good. The boots save me any issues over poorly fitting greaves. But it was really stuff I had in the back of the car at the time, after a day as a cavalryman.

I will make a plea for using equipment rather than just displaying it. Impressions should have a slightly worn look, certainly in terms of clothing.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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I utterly agree about the clothing's need to look like it was worn. New shoes? First thing to do is step in the mud. New tunic? Wear it five times without washing. Walk through the brushy woods. Next time I get the kit box open, I've steeled my nerve to take a metal bar and put a sword dent in my favorite helmet.

Garments and equipment ought not to have "age patina", I think, because they were "new" when they wore them, but they ought not to look like we just picked them off the shelf at WallusMartius, either.
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
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Olvios from ARES ANAX.

Armorer D. Katsikis completed the reinforced linothorax with 1300 scales and no glue!

Enjoy!
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I like the photo. Tell us something about the timeline, kit, location etc. You have a few leaves on the ground there too!
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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Giannis, I've been thinking about my spear length ever since my rather cheeky post. My dory was too long.

I came back from riding and immediately took out my saw. The shaft is now shorter and has been re-tapered. I changed the shape of the spearhead a little too. My dory is now 2.74 m long. It is very light and easy to use. And it fits in the car much easier.

I now feel a better person, some how........
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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Haha! I think 1,74m is much better for a hoplite's dory. My next dory will be at least 1,5m. I didn't advise you to shorten is,because you also use if for cavalry spear,and there things change. In fact i am not well informed about spear lengths for cavalry impressions,and how these changed in the course of time. There is a lengthy discussion here in RAT that have to read at some point.
I also think that if you narrowed your spear point down it will be much better. I quite fancy those long and thin spear points,direct descendants of the bronze age spears,with that distinctive olive leaf shape. Some of them are almost 0,5m long and less than 5cm wide. But from the 8th century till the fifth,they gradually became shorter and relatively wider. Yet,there is always the frustrating problem of the identification of the spear tips. Certainly there are some rather wide and big points in Vergina,but such points are shown in macedonian huntings scenes,like the lion hunt of Alexander and Philotas(?) and the hunting scene on the Vergina tomb II. Generally i believe that the longer the spear and bigger the tapper,the point should be smaller.
Post a photo of the spear whenever you find it easy.
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
My conscience made me re-work the spear to make it more of an average weapon, rather than a long heavy killing weapon.

I do this for a living, and I am lucky enough to own a variety of infantry and cavalry spears. I agree that the large spear heads are probably for hunting, with lovely long cutting edges for muscle and blood vessel. But such weapons would also work against un-armoured enemies. The penetrative properties of different types of spearheads are fascinating. But 1.74 m seems a small spear, and 1.5 m seems too small for an infantry spear. You need length/weight to penetrate armour and helmets. Infantry spears lack the velocity of cavalry weapons.

For a while we had a high density rubber torso covered in plate armour, plus a helmet, as a target for jousters at the yard where I train. On foot it was annoying how good quality javelins made relatively little impression. On horseback javelins and spears soon destroyed the target. Couched lances hit the breast plate, but cavalry spears could hit inside the "collar bone" between helmet and breastplate and penetrate deeply.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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Those are all pretty sobering thoughts, John. Makes one think less of the "game" and more of the "reality" of what we portray, doesn't it?
M. Demetrius Abicio
(David Wills)

Saepe veritas est dura.
Reply
Oh,John this was a terrible mistake on my part. On any spear lengh in my previous post, you should add one meter!!! What i meant is that 2,74m is better for a hoplite's spear,and that my next spear will be at least 2,5m!!
I guess now my message makes more sense! :oops:
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
Giannis, you have made me smile.

Recreating weapons is a sobering business. It takes time to get a weapon to work properly, it should not just be set dressing. Cavalry weapons will especially suffer great stress when used. But all our gear should be fit for purpose, and we need to consider how our weapons were used to reconstruct the correct size, weight and heft.

I do not honestly know what spear and javelin heads were made of in this period. But I suspect javelin heads would be iron rather than steel. You can make iron as sharp as steel, although it will not hold it's edge as well. But while a steel edge is delicate and prone to damage, iron is easily filed down and re-sharpened. A file and sharpening stone would be standard kit.

I suspect we primarily spend our time getting good quality helmets and armour, then look at our clothing, and don't give our weapons the time they warrant.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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Reply
Quote:I like the photo. Tell us something about the timeline, kit, location etc. You have a few leaves on the ground there too!

Banks of Axios river outside Thessaloniki last week.
We generaly belive that the troops of the Delian league operating in Thrace in 478 adopted elements of Thrcic gear.

I like your photos because they deviate from the "Sunny Greece" concept.
Others seasons exist in...Greece..too!

And in our club we take your last post seriously!

Kind regards
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I certainly makes sense that Thracian items would be adopted. I love Thracian cavalry fittings. Nice photos, and thanks for sharing Smile
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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A rather apprehensive Thracian.
Kind regards
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