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Show here your Greek warrior impression
John,why do you believe they were there? i don't mean to transform the thread into one more "lino/spolas" thread,but why do we read about thorakes of linen,and spolades that are thorakes of leather,and not bronze/iron cuirasses covered in linen or leather? Why do we see such flexibility in many representations,and how would a spear penetrate all that matterial,as so often depicted? And how much would all that weight,to prefer it from a full bronze cuirass? I know that my leather spolas is quite heavy,without the scales i've added to the sides. I admit that bronze plates might have weighted less than the same surface covered in scales,but there is simply no evidence,and not even indication for this!
In my armour i feel protected enough from slashes,and perhaps not so well protected from stabs,but this seems to go along the representations. My right side is covered in bronze scales and my chest area is covered by double amount of protection,since the shoulder guards overlap with the main body. This makes 5 layers of leather! To all the rest of my body protection,one should add my shield!
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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Well to state the obvious the one bit of achaeological evidence we do have is of an iron cuirass.

And not every tube and yoke shows flexibility.

And we do see the use of copper alloy scales to make a composite cuirass in inconography.

Metal beats leather in terms of protection.

So why not?
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
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The iron cuirass should work against any poin of metal plates under leather or linen,actually. There is no trace,nor any incication that the metal was covered with anything. There is no room under the gold bands for an added matterial,and of course no one would call such a cuirass "linen" or "leather"! It's as if we suggest that because the phrygian caps were imitated into a bronze helmet, this is evidence that the phrygian caps that were worn in battle had metal plates on the inside!

In fact,the vast majority of linothorakes show a flexibility that most reconstructions lack. And not only those on vases but also those on relatively accurate sculptures,like the parthenon!

I agree on sclaes though. Here we see them,and this solves all our problems. And theirs. Though i will admit that there is a problem here too,that we have bronze scales from the mycenean times,but not the classical ones. I wonder if most of them were made of leather...

Now,the fact that metal is better protection than leather doesn't mean much to me. A spartan hoplite died when an arrow penetrated his shield, cuirass(of leather) and chest! I really don't see why they should hide their metal protection,instead of rivetting them on! And there are representations of cuirasses that resemble riveted on metal plates(like the one in the photos above). They are fairly rare.

For all these reasons,i'd say "not"
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
We both know we cannot prove anything in this case, it is just enjoyable speculation.

We have boeotian helmets and at least one petasos helmet with holes punched around the edge which may have been used to cover the helmet in material, like a 17th century secret. But I suspect these holes are really for a leather edging, as we see on late Roman helmets. And to use your example we certainly do have phrygian caps tied back in such a way to show metal underneath the soft covering. So perhaps some of those nice hats did contain metal skull caps beneath them.

I disagree that the "vast majority "of tube and yokes show great flexibility, but some do show limited flexibility. Although of course any metal fittings may not reduce flexibility. Relatively flexibility cannot really be used as proof one way or the other.

The idea of up grading armour through the use of extra bits of metal is not to be dismissed. Our tank crews still do it today.

But as I initally said the issue of hiding any expensive metal fittings is an issue.

Speculation is fun, and one reason why I like this period so much.
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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Quote: Leather over metal would be better against blades, no doubt. It seems to me that it would be difficult if not impossible to keep rust from forming on the metal under the leather, though.

That shouldn't be a problem in the short run if the steel/iron plates have been tinned or painted. It worked in medieval Europe and I believe (brass?) objects were occasionally tinned in Roman times. However, it seems that in the long run the surface can wear off (can't recall the details but I'm thinking of finds where only some parts of the tinned objects remain) but the fabric/leather cover should have given up long before that.

On the wider subject of plates hidden within tube and yoke corselets: From the discussion I have seen here I think there is no clear evidence for or against it. However the weakest argument against plates is that soldiers wouldn't have wanted to hide the metal plates beneath fabric or leather: There are so many examples of armour from other periods where plates are hidden that speaks against this. For all we know the Greeks could have grown tired of flashy bronze cuirasses and just moved on to more understated (or just different) armour -- some of which could have kept the supposed level of protection of thoraxes and some being more light-weight. It wouldn't be the only time in history where the selection of armour design is driven by fashion.

Quote:And how much would all that weight,to prefer it from a full bronze cuirass? I know that my leather spolas is quite heavy,without the scales i've added to the sides. I admit that bronze plates might have weighted less than the same surface covered in scales,but there is simply no evidence,and not even indication for this!

Something I've been thinking about is whether there could have been some suddenly realised benefit of keeping the sun off your thorax? In that case the added weight of fabric/leather over the metal would be less annoying than the increased heat level or heat burns of bare metal when fighting in denser formations more often. Since it is much easier to cover plates and replace the covering material if the plates are smaller that would make the (already existing?) tube and yoke design the natural shape to transition to even for the guys that want greater protection. Don't know how viable that idea is but it seems that heat has always been more of an issue than weight amongst armoured soldiers (at least amongst medieval armoured men).
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The armour that you guys are imaginning is not a linothorax,nor a spolas,which apparently has some metal plates hidden under or within it. It is a metal cuirass,that is covered in fabric or thin leather. I will remind once more that there is no indication that the vergina cuirass was ever covered by anything! I will also suggest that those plates would most probably have been of bronze if they existed. Not iron. And given the huge amount of helmets and greaves,and even the substantian find of arm and leg guartds that were dedicated on sanctuaries and that we now find often intact,it is at least suspicious that we have not found any piece big enough that could be even identified as part of the covered cuirass. The vergina cuirass was very identifiable as such even in the state it was found,even if it is iron.
So ok,it is fun to speculate,but i can't understand how one can "certainly see" such metal plates within those cuirasses.
As for flexibility in representations,of course i didn't mean that when we see a man standing,this cuirass seems flexible,but rather when we see stances where if it was flexible,it would be visible,this indeed happens. For example when they bent.I will agree though that these are not to be trusted very much,and base an arguement only on this.
Khairete
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
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I am not imagining that at all! Smile
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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This is a photo taken of me at a school day I was doing last month,

The teacher has blurred the background to get rid of the modern day elements and grey scaled it to make it look more arty.
I like just the hint of an eye you can see.
Still, it looks good.
The helmet is one of DSC's corinthians with a transverse crest in red and black, the cuirass is is a replica of the olympian bell cuirass, there's also some greaves, aspis, laconian short sword im converting and dory in the picture but they've been cut out.
Stuart
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Well done Stewart!
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Thank you, the Ancient Greek gear is fast becoming my favourite period I do, I may have to join a group with it rather than just using it for work.
Stuart
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Great picture Stuart.

Do you have one of the rest of you so we can see the bits you listed...even if it is less "arty"?
Moi Watson

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, Merlot in one hand, Cigar in the other; body thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and screaming "WOO HOO, what a ride!
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Excellent. I have the same feeling. The classical Greek period is a facinating place to explore, to speculate and in which to have fun. You must be very proud of the bell cuirass. Big Grin
John Conyard

York

A member of Comitatus Late Roman
Reconstruction Group

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.comitatus.net">http://www.comitatus.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.historicalinterpretations.net">http://www.historicalinterpretations.net
<a class="postlink" href="http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com">http://lateantiquearchaeology.wordpress.com
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Nice photo! Please post more. Where did you have your cuirass made?
Khaire
Giannis
Giannis K. Hoplite
a.k.a.:Giannis Kadoglou
a.k.a.:Thorax
[Image: -side-1.gif]
Reply
The cuirass was done by White rose armoury, as were the greaves, I'm still in the process of painting the aspis, have gone for an iron oxide red, am thinking a black bulls head for the emblem.

Will put some more photos up when I can find someone to take them. Big Grin
Stuart
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Our Latest photo-shoot for a magazine.
Kind regards
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