Linothorax design/construction

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

You're right, I was being an arguement bully by tossing the ball back at you without answering :lol:

Thanks for admiting that,it's actually rare in such forums.
I see your thoughts about the plates.If i find anything that applied only to plate armour I'll tell.With the risk of establishing a theory I don't agree with :lol:

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

The only bronze pieces I've seen and that are described as "linothorax pieces" are in Vergina.Actually,if I remember correctly,they were gold!And I think they did use the word "linothorax" instead of leather or anything else.This I don't say as evidence for the use of linen inplace of leather,just to note that some linothorax fittings have been identified.
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis wrote

There are references of linen being used for thorakes in classical times

....really? There are, to the best of my knowledge, NO references in the contemporary sources to greek body armour being made of linen, only asiatic ones. If you know of any references to greeks and linen thorakes, why have you not posted them before? If you don't, then please retract that statement, or modify it so as to be accurate, since otherwise it muddles and confuses discusiion on the subject.

while there in no direct mention of leather ones.Spolas is not direct mention and is used once(twoice,but in the same text) to describe armor.

......which is a lot more evidence than for linen ( which is zero, de nada,'tipota' ), and spolas is defined in an ancient lexicon as leather armour which hangs from the shoulders, as you well know.

And in any case,the fact that others present theories without enough evidence or no evidence at all,does not leave you support a theory with no evidence

.......obviously, you don't mean me, Giannis, since Im always careful to post my sources (unlike many others ) :? ?
And if you are prepared to accept greek 'linen thorakes' on the basis of no evidence at all, why not accept Paul B.'s hypothesis ? Since it cannot be proven one way or another, surely the correct answer to Paul B.'s idea is "maybe" or "possibly, but there is no evidence for it so far" ?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

I was not having you in mind,but anyway,if you want to modify my post i will.
There are references of linen thorakes being used in classical times by cultures that the Greeks new of and lived near to,and some times borrowed their styles/customs.These references are at least Alkaios,Herodotos,Xenophon in the archaic and classical times.Let me note that these references(except Herodotos)are speaking of thorakes the Greeks would identify,and could possibly be non greek,even though this is not stated and could also apply to greek styles.
Spolas is mentioned twice by Xenophon as kind of body armor,and is separated from a thorax.The info that it hung from the shoulders and that it was leather comes from a AD lexicon,that uses Xenophon and others as its source.
That the greeks new linen armour for centuries is sure by two finds from thebes and one from mycynae.These finds come from the middle and late mycenean times or possibly geometric.Traces of leather have been found in some cases,too,but were not identified as part of a thorax.There is no expression "leather thorax" in ancient Greek while there is in many occasions "linoi thorakes" and "linothorax" in Homer.
AD source says that the Greeks used linen thorakes but those would not be very efective in battle because they could be pierced by iron weapons,so he says those would be more efective in hunting(is this his personal opinion I wonder?)
The efect shown in art can be produced both with linen quilted or glued and leather.Some of those depictions are aunlikely to be depicting plated armor,while others not.
The conclusion is that in every one theory the answer is "maybe" or "possibly",but the re-enactor should read all this evidence posted in a nine page thread and much more and decide where there is more evidence.
My personal choice,is non plated linen,either glued or quilted covered with one layer glued or stitched linen.
I hope this was a somewhat completed message,Paul M?Forgive if I forgot to mention any other view or piece of evidence that exists in all those pages...
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

If Andrea is correct in his interpretation then he has just presented us with a precedent for what I have been describing

...one man's rather dubious interpretation of a Linear 'B' character that could be anything ? That is pretty thin, as evidence goes !

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paul B,if the gold fittings identified as linothorax parts found in Vergina,were indeed from a linothorax(either linen or leather) then there were no bronze plates in there.Or do you think by then the linothorax would have been plain linen?
As for armour resistance,it's obvious that the greeks did not consider their armor totally invincible.For example,in the battle of Plataia,Herodotos tells us that when Masistios fell,the greeks were hitting him to the body massively but could not kill him,until someone realised he was wearing an iron thorax and hit him in the eye.This shows that the Greeks were not used to non piercing thoraxes.If at that time iron was as strong as bronze,then we can assume their common thorakes(in art of that time this is the linothorax) were not as resistant.
Pausanias talkes about greek linen thorakes that can be pierced by iron.So what?
Khairete
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Once again, Giannis, you seem to want to skew/spin the evidence, such as it is and thus your summary is not correct.

and some times borrowed their styles/customs.

....but no source mentions borrowing linen thorakes, ever. This is pure guesswork, not evidence. Alkaios is too soon and was probably making a 'Homeric' reference anyway.BTW, even Homer only mentions linen armour 3 times IIRC ( Dan Howard can correct me if that's wrong), Herodotus and Xenophon never mention linen in a greek context, and whilst they say 'thorakes' in a greek context, they qualify this word by adding the description' linen' when speaking of Asiatic armour, thus making it clear that greek 'thorakes' are not made of linen.

That the greeks new linen armour for centuries is sure by two finds from thebes and one from mycynae

.....this is also incorrect, and pure surmise - there is actually no evidence of continuity in the use of linen body protection from Homeric down to classical times, and even if there were, there is nothing whatever to connect linen to the tube-and-yoke corselet. The reason we carried on this subject was in the hope that something would turn up......but nothing did !! (

There is no expression "leather thorax"

...thus showing that a 'thorakes' was not made of leather either ( but rather bronze), and we do know the greek word for leather body armour which hangs from the shoulders - -- it is 'spolas' ! D

AD source says that the Greeks used linen thorakes

...again, completely untrue !! what Pausanias says is that if you want to see a 'linen cuirass', you have to go to a temple in Asia ( implying there are none in Greece ) and in all his descriptions of Greece and its temples and trophies, never once mentions linen armour ! The exact opposite of what you say he said ! :? ?

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

....but no source mentions borrowing linen thorakes, ever
Persians are shown with tube and yoke thorakes.The Greeks next to them with the exaxt same thorakes.So what,the greek one was leather and the other linen?Or what,both styles had different origins but ended wth the same shape?No,someone borrowed it from the other.Either Greeks from Persian/Asiatics, or the opposite.Xenophin talks of linen thorakes as if every Greek knows exactly what hes is speaking about.Did he expect every greek in Athens had seen the persian linen thorax and was able to destinguish it from every other variation there existed in Asia,concerning the form of pteryges and such?
Pausanias does speak of greek linen thorakes but just says there don't exist any more,after 4 centuries!As I mentioned in another thread,old armor was exchanged for new one in the sanctuaries.In greek churches there are many offerings,there are very old churches in Greece,but you won't see offerings dating 400 years back.It's not so extraordinary that one could not see those ancient textile armors if and when dedicated,in the time of Pausanias.
It is not me that twists the evidence,Paul.You try to deteriorate every single piece of evidence there is about linen.Ans apparently there are more mentions about linen armor in ancient greek,in evert concept,speaking about Asiatic or whatever armor,than there is the word "spolas" even not identifying it as armor or as leather garment.
Khaire
Giannis

[Paullus Scipio]

Giannis, you really are getting careless with quoting sources ! hock:

Pausanias talkes about greek linen thorakes that can be pierced by iron.So what?

....... Pausanias doesn't say 'greek' at all...see my post above, and for what Pausanias actually says, page 6 of this very thread !

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Paullus Scipio\\n[quote]

[7] Linen breastplates (thorakes hoi linoi – note once again the qualification of the word thorakes) are not so useful to fighters, for they let the iron pass through, if the blow be a violent one. They aid hunters, however, for the teeth of lions or leopards break off in them. You may see linen breastplates dedicated in other sanctuaries, notably in that at Gryneum, where there is a most beautiful grove of Apollo, with cultivated trees, and all those which, although they bear no fruit, are pleasing to smell or look upon.â€

[Paullus Scipio]

Persians are shown with tube and yoke thorakes.The Greeks next to them with the exaxt same thorakes.So what,the greek one was leather and the other linen?

......only on a very few Attic red figure vases.The artists had most likely never seen a Persian, but even so, many showed Persians in what is usually interpreted as quilted corselets.Further, these depictions come from after the Persian wars when Persians may have borrowed tube-and-yoke armour from greeks.The sources make it very clear that Persian and Greek body-armour was not the same, by describing Persian armour.

Or what,both styles had different origins but ended wth the same shape?

...quite possibly! The Indian armour Paul B. illustrated and early Japanese armour are very similar to a tube-and yoke thorax. Human anatomy doesn't change. Who do you think borrowed from whom ? :lol: Seriously, though, I would agree that it is likely that one borrowed the form from the other,but we can't say which way ! Significantly, all depictions of Persians wearing tube-and-yoke thorakes come from after Darius and Xerxes invasions.

Xenophin talks of linen thorakes as if every Greek knows exactly what hes is speaking about.Did he expect every greek in Athens had seen the persian linen thorax and was able to destinguish it from every other variation there existed in Asia,concerning the form of pteryges and such?

...Of course not ! That's why he takes the trouble to tell us of 'thorakes lineoi' - body armour made of linen - and the twisted pteryges etc, precisely beacuse these things are un-greek !

Pausanias does speak of greek linen thorakes but just says there don't exist any more,after 4 centuries!

.....no, he doesn't :evil:
Please stop mis-quoting Pausanias - see previous posts.

It is not me that twists the evidence,Paul

... I'm afraid it is - your last few posts speak for themselves.... ( (

You try to deteriorate every single piece of evidence there is about linen

......but as we have seen, there is no credible evidence!

Ans apparently there are more mentions about linen armor in ancient greek,in evert concept,speaking about Asiatic or whatever armor,than there is the word "spolas" even not identifying it as armor or as leather garment.

......no surprise there ,though - the greeks were familiar enough with their own gear, but took the trouble to describe "foreign" gear. Besides, evidence is weighed, not counted, remember ??

I'm sorry Giannis, I'm no longer comfortable discussing this subject with you, so I will post no more on it.

[Dan Howard]

Paul,there is nothing to suggest this happened in ancient Greece

If Andrea is correct in his interpretation then he has just presented us with a precedent for what I have been describing.

Except that I could list at least dozen different interpretations for that tiny simplistic ideogram. Ideograms are like handwriting. People make short-cuts. Each writer has his own style. We have nowhere near enough samples of each ideogram to start interpreting them any more specifically than "another type of armour". Those bossed discs are just as likely to have come from a shield as a thorax. Homer specifically describes shields with multiple bosses. While I love the work Andrea has done to present much of the primary evidence in one place, IMO the speculated reconstructions are unhelpful.

[PMBardunias]

For example,in the battle of Plataia,Herodotos tells us that when Masistios fell,the greeks were hitting him to the body massively but could not kill him,until someone realised he was wearing an iron thorax and hit him in the eye

This is good, I had forgotten about this when I asked about iron armor at this date. So we know that iron armor existed, now how do you think this persians armor was constructed? How would you make armor of iron pre 500BC? Could they make a full cuirasse of it or would they have to cobble together smaller plates?

The fact that the Greeks "realized" he was wearing iron armor suggests that this was not completely alien to them, just unexpected.

[PMBardunias]

Those bossed discs are just as likely to have come from a shield as a thorax. Homer specifically describes shields with multiple bosses. While I love the work Andrea has done to present much of the primary evidence in one place, IMO the speculated reconstructions are unhelpful.

True and they are simmilar to Villanovan (I think it them) helmets with discs over a leather base. Whether this concept can so easily be translated to body armor as well I cannot say. It does make me wonder if there there is a common tradtition from the bronze age behind all of the various multiple disc armors in the region or if they are just convergent.

[salimbeti]

Paul,there is nothing to suggest this happened in ancient Greece

If Andrea is correct in his interpretation then he has just presented us with a precedent for what I have been describing.

Except that I could list at least dozen different interpretations for that tiny simplistic ideogram. Ideograms are like handwriting. People make short-cuts. Each writer has his own style. We have nowhere near enough samples of each ideogram to start interpreting them any more specifically than "another type of armour". Those bossed discs are just as likely to have come from a shield as a thorax. Homer specifically describes shields with multiple bosses. While I love the work Andrea has done to present much of the primary evidence in one place, IMO the speculated reconstructions are unhelpful.

This specific linear B ideogram from Knossos represent a cuirass as expained in the relevant page.... "in the Linear B tablets from Knossos a simplified variant of the cuirass simbol is represented. Such ideogram is always used with a sillabogram KI, RI or QE which probably was used for a more precise identification. When this simbol is jointed with QE (that is considered the acrophonic short form for qe-ro2 ) more likely it indicate a "Kiton" or non metallic cuirass where two qe-ro2 was added . This representation was probably utilized when a much simple defence (respect to the typical full armour or cuirass) compoused by two plates for chest and back protection was used without other elements...".
So there are no so many reasonable interpretations about this ideograms!!
Even considering the artist own style all the linear B ideograms representing cuirass and armour are very similar to each others and their interpretation as cuirass and armours is not only because of the graphic form but also because the other descriptions associated to these ideograms.
The same is valid from the ideograms of the chariots (which graphical images well attested as these ideograms even if schematic are no so semplicistic in the representation of the element's general design and shape).
All the so far available informations listed in linear B tablets relevant to the armour, corselet, chariot, helmet...are described in the relevant Web site pages.
Furthermore in the bibliography page of the site several books/publications were to find informations about the linear B and Mycenaeran tablets translations are listed.

The bronze dishes found in Archalochori Crete and Liatovouni could also have been shield bosses but compared with the other shield bosses found in other graves, remains of linen and stiched thread etc... these were more likely reinforcement plates of a perishable material corselets.

The reconstructions are of course semplified, maybe also speculative but reasonably based on the very few elements so far discovered, as well as compared with the very few linear B descriptions.
I'll be very happy to include in the web site any other "less speculative" representations coming from other scholars if these are compatible with the above mentioned so far discovered fonts or better supported.

I think that is less usefull just to show the fonts or the specimens without any comparison with the other fonts (pottery writing sources etc...) and or hypothetical reconstruction of the weaponry, which of course probably is not 100% correct, but if reasonably supported helps anyway and gave a general idea about the possible design of the element.
For this reason In all the reconstructions present in the web site I alway use the terms ...possible, hypothetical, reasonably based etc....

But this argument is probably out of topic
For what concern the specific topic I also don't see any link between this kind of protection used during the bronze age and the linothorax used during the classical time, and I don't have idea or evidences if some of these linothorax could have also been reinforced with bronze plates stiched or placed between the linen layers.