05-25-2007, 07:19 AM
Oh well, you have been presenting and adapting your points of view and arguments for a long time already! :wink: But quickly enough, not to look as if I left the thread without commenting and considering your last post:
-The appearance of trilobate pommels in Iberian contexts is not dependent on Celtic influence, nor the types of thureoi south of the Ebro., which are different from those north of the river. Pattern is different and more complex in Iberian territory after 237, when these shields appear without some of the more 'Celtic' characteristics.
-You can still interpret what Polybius wanted to say, going further that what he actually said. You can also dismiss images of daggers or very short swords as mere representations of triangular swords of the Sidonian-stelae type, and then proceeed to make them both derivatives of La Tène type Celtic swords , which they do not really resemble at all. You can then dismiss the examples of gladius hispaniensis as one offs -but there are not so many actual swords over there, so methodologically we should not dismiss them so easily-, and then show your opinion that it was a 'judaean' sword (against other people's opinions -including the one who published the find - and Occam's razor and the evidence of the Egyptian swords. Finally, you can press, merge and force all this into the idea of an overall 'Celticization' of the weaponry of Hellenistic kingdoms, which I would not dare to label 'shoddy', but that in my opinion still tells only part of the overall pattern, as Sekunda's does in his own approach. I believe you are taking the data I presented, and adapting and adopting it when necessary to fit your overall pattern and ideas, which might be reasonable -even true- but which I find methodologically unsound.
As Roman Republican bird headed swords are of Hellenistic origin and are straight as you himself recognize; and taking ito account that most data for bird-headed swords shows them sheathed and is therefore debatable, I think what should be proved is the swords as the 4th relief from Side, or the Altar from Ormana in Pisidia, were not as straight as their contemporaries and descendants -we both agree on that-but all curved, and not the other way round.
I am grateful for drawing to my attention the reliefs -from Magnesia I believe?-, which I overlooked in my discussion. The Kerch sword (it is the sword discovered in the early XIX c., isnt' it?) is quite odd typologically and is probably earlier, even taking into account the context of the gravegoods it was found with. There is some remaining iconographic evidence of machairai in the 2nd century BC, of course, I already admitted that. But of a secondary nature in comparison with straight swords, and IMHO in decadence .
And finally, while I said that the presence in the area of xiphoi, some later Celtic type swords, Sidon-type swords -different IMHO to the former-, daggers, straight bladed gladii, and other types, show a 'wide variety', you insist it reflects a very limited variety and during a limited period. Ok, let it be.
I believe lines of argument, evidence, and the uses of it are clear enough for any one interested to read and evaluate. It is a long time since I abandonded this quote-counter quote method as a really useful means of discussion when the problem is complex, evidence debatible, and positions not really well defined as confronted but instead a matter of weighing and shades of meaning.
Very Best Regards, Ruben
-The appearance of trilobate pommels in Iberian contexts is not dependent on Celtic influence, nor the types of thureoi south of the Ebro., which are different from those north of the river. Pattern is different and more complex in Iberian territory after 237, when these shields appear without some of the more 'Celtic' characteristics.
-You can still interpret what Polybius wanted to say, going further that what he actually said. You can also dismiss images of daggers or very short swords as mere representations of triangular swords of the Sidonian-stelae type, and then proceeed to make them both derivatives of La Tène type Celtic swords , which they do not really resemble at all. You can then dismiss the examples of gladius hispaniensis as one offs -but there are not so many actual swords over there, so methodologically we should not dismiss them so easily-, and then show your opinion that it was a 'judaean' sword (against other people's opinions -including the one who published the find - and Occam's razor and the evidence of the Egyptian swords. Finally, you can press, merge and force all this into the idea of an overall 'Celticization' of the weaponry of Hellenistic kingdoms, which I would not dare to label 'shoddy', but that in my opinion still tells only part of the overall pattern, as Sekunda's does in his own approach. I believe you are taking the data I presented, and adapting and adopting it when necessary to fit your overall pattern and ideas, which might be reasonable -even true- but which I find methodologically unsound.
As Roman Republican bird headed swords are of Hellenistic origin and are straight as you himself recognize; and taking ito account that most data for bird-headed swords shows them sheathed and is therefore debatable, I think what should be proved is the swords as the 4th relief from Side, or the Altar from Ormana in Pisidia, were not as straight as their contemporaries and descendants -we both agree on that-but all curved, and not the other way round.
I am grateful for drawing to my attention the reliefs -from Magnesia I believe?-, which I overlooked in my discussion. The Kerch sword (it is the sword discovered in the early XIX c., isnt' it?) is quite odd typologically and is probably earlier, even taking into account the context of the gravegoods it was found with. There is some remaining iconographic evidence of machairai in the 2nd century BC, of course, I already admitted that. But of a secondary nature in comparison with straight swords, and IMHO in decadence .
And finally, while I said that the presence in the area of xiphoi, some later Celtic type swords, Sidon-type swords -different IMHO to the former-, daggers, straight bladed gladii, and other types, show a 'wide variety', you insist it reflects a very limited variety and during a limited period. Ok, let it be.
I believe lines of argument, evidence, and the uses of it are clear enough for any one interested to read and evaluate. It is a long time since I abandonded this quote-counter quote method as a really useful means of discussion when the problem is complex, evidence debatible, and positions not really well defined as confronted but instead a matter of weighing and shades of meaning.
Very Best Regards, Ruben
