08-15-2007, 07:37 AM
...sorry,Bardunias, but, as we say here in Oz, are you taking the p*ss ?
Or just being deliberately obtuse?
)
You don't address the points put forward, nor do you put up an alternate viewpoint, supported by the sources. Is this RAT's answer to the "Mall Ninja" ?? :lol:
At any rate, I set out the mechanics, as I saw them, of Hoplite drill, in "Warfare in the Classical World" as long ago as 1980 - have a look at that if you are confused. All manouevring had to take place in open order, but the final approach/charge into the enemy would have taken place from just outside missile range, say 50-100metres, once the psiloi had been recalled/spontaneously withdrawn after running out of missiles. At that point the general would have given the order ( probably passed on by trumpet) to close up, and the final advance/charge commenced in close order - the "moment of truth", the commitment to battle , as it were, was the order to close up to 'battle formation' since no further adjustment was then possible.
"run 200 metres.."? Where did you get that idea? That would be a recipe for disaster, arriving 'blown', out of breath and in disorder !! :o Only at Marathon did Hoplites advance to battle over any distance, and both the distance involved, and whether it was at a run or fast walk, are hotly debated matters.
I don't believe Arrian misunderstood the meaning of phalanx, nor had its meaning changed much since Xenophon's day - 'a body of men in linear battle array'; but perhaps you have? :?
And if Arrian has bias, doesn't everyone?
I most certainly would not have the temerity to suggest that we know more about Mycenean warfare than Homer !! Even if he was simply heir to a long verbal tradition; and arms and armour, and tactical methods were different from his own day, so that he was "wrong"in part, once again, he had access to sources, long lost, that we do not. I have said elsewhere that it is a good precept to believe the sources, unless they are demonsrably wrong in some particular and even then, only discard that particular, not the whole.
Isocrates means what he says - a single line.
"most authors assume......". Evidence? citations? sources?
" herd dynamics" ? This is not a flock of sheep we are talking about here but professional, trained, Spartan Hoplites!! Even Asiatics fought in formations not 'herds' or 'blobs'. The whole point of drill is to get men to overcome their fear in the stress of battle and function. A battle is lost once cohesion/disciplie goes and mob/herd behaviour takes over. This is emphasised over and over since time immemorial.......
"Thymbrara" was Xenophon's opportunity to explain how to deal with Spartan'envelopment' tactics as well as Theban'column' ones, and , as you say an opportunity for an experienced cavalry commander to expound on cavalry and light troop tactics in the the light of his Anabasis experience.
Sorry, but you must put forward a hypothesis/alternate theory, cite your sources, and explain the matters I have alluded to in some alternate way if worthwhile debate is to continue.
Or just being deliberately obtuse?
) You don't address the points put forward, nor do you put up an alternate viewpoint, supported by the sources. Is this RAT's answer to the "Mall Ninja" ?? :lol:
At any rate, I set out the mechanics, as I saw them, of Hoplite drill, in "Warfare in the Classical World" as long ago as 1980 - have a look at that if you are confused. All manouevring had to take place in open order, but the final approach/charge into the enemy would have taken place from just outside missile range, say 50-100metres, once the psiloi had been recalled/spontaneously withdrawn after running out of missiles. At that point the general would have given the order ( probably passed on by trumpet) to close up, and the final advance/charge commenced in close order - the "moment of truth", the commitment to battle , as it were, was the order to close up to 'battle formation' since no further adjustment was then possible.
"run 200 metres.."? Where did you get that idea? That would be a recipe for disaster, arriving 'blown', out of breath and in disorder !! :o Only at Marathon did Hoplites advance to battle over any distance, and both the distance involved, and whether it was at a run or fast walk, are hotly debated matters.
I don't believe Arrian misunderstood the meaning of phalanx, nor had its meaning changed much since Xenophon's day - 'a body of men in linear battle array'; but perhaps you have? :?
And if Arrian has bias, doesn't everyone?
I most certainly would not have the temerity to suggest that we know more about Mycenean warfare than Homer !! Even if he was simply heir to a long verbal tradition; and arms and armour, and tactical methods were different from his own day, so that he was "wrong"in part, once again, he had access to sources, long lost, that we do not. I have said elsewhere that it is a good precept to believe the sources, unless they are demonsrably wrong in some particular and even then, only discard that particular, not the whole.
Isocrates means what he says - a single line.
"most authors assume......". Evidence? citations? sources?
" herd dynamics" ? This is not a flock of sheep we are talking about here but professional, trained, Spartan Hoplites!! Even Asiatics fought in formations not 'herds' or 'blobs'. The whole point of drill is to get men to overcome their fear in the stress of battle and function. A battle is lost once cohesion/disciplie goes and mob/herd behaviour takes over. This is emphasised over and over since time immemorial.......
"Thymbrara" was Xenophon's opportunity to explain how to deal with Spartan'envelopment' tactics as well as Theban'column' ones, and , as you say an opportunity for an experienced cavalry commander to expound on cavalry and light troop tactics in the the light of his Anabasis experience.
Sorry, but you must put forward a hypothesis/alternate theory, cite your sources, and explain the matters I have alluded to in some alternate way if worthwhile debate is to continue.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
