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Wagnijo · 08-22-2003, 08:11 PM

Tiberius 
 
In your ansver you spend a lot of effort on describing 
the effectivenes of the Roman _army_. 
 
This is beside the point since we are looking into the 
Roman soldiers effectiveness in one on one combat against a germanic foe.. 
 
A couple of points 
 
On average size and bodystrength: 
 
You say that I underestimate roman military training. 
I dont. But there is no way that training can make up 
for malnutrition in childhood. 
 
All it can produce is a tough small bastard who - all things equal - is going to be at disadvantage against a big tough bastard in one on one combat. 
 
The Romans might have recruited some foreign auxilia but 
the backbone of the army was still the legions which 
were recruited among the poor citizens. 
 
I still think it is a safe assumption that your average germanic warrior was a tad bigger than your 
average legionary. Please note that I make no such assumption about the Roman and germanic societies in 
general. 
 
 
BTW You say that you dont recall hearing about germanic surgeons. 
 
Surgical instruments are not unusual in germanic weaponsacrifices. This strongly suggests that germanic 
units had some kind of medical assistence attached. 
 
home20.inet.tele.dk/wagnijo/Faerge.htm 
 
Surgical instruments from Illerup 2nd c. The pic will stay 
up for at least a couple of days. 
 
On miltary training vs a life devoted to combat: 
 
I have no problem with your Roman recruit being a tough 
and streetwise survivor. 
 
But he would come from an enviroment : 
 
Where you couldnt carry military weapons inside the city limits. 
 
Where civilians rarely if at all posessed military weapons. 
 
Where meat when you saw it was something you bought from the butchers or in ready made meals from a take away stand. 
 
Where killings mostly was done by the proper authorities, 
by entertainers or by criminals. 
 
Where war was something that struck far away places or was something you heard about but never actually 
felt as threath to your own existence. 
 
 
Your germanic young warrior otoh would have known 
his whole life that he was destined to become a warrior. 
 
He would have played combat related games and trained 
with weapons or replicas from the moment he could lift them. 
 
He would come from a life where the slaughter of 
animals was a vey ordinary occurance that he would have participated in. 
 
He would come from a tradition where feuds and revenge 
killings was an accepted way of settling conflicts. 
 
Wars with and raids on rivalling tribes or clans would be a very real and normal state of affairs to him. 
 
That you think some military training of your roman recruit is going to adequately prepare him to take on 
a germanic warrior on his own is simply beyond comprehension. 
 
This becomes even more incomprehensible when you concider that most of the roman training was geared to 
prepare the recruit to fight as part of a unit. 
 
Roman military training might very well sort the chaff from the wheat but I think the germanic actual combat experience would tend to have the same effect. 
 
The Roman military advantages was elsewhere; notably 
in their recognition that the fighting ability of an well trained and well diciplined unit was far higher than the sum of the individual soldiers fighting abilities. 
 
Then you have the better Roman logistics, command and control, dicipline, equipment , engineering capabilities etc. 
 
In short the germanic warrior was an individual whos vocation was warfare while the legionaire was a professional among other pros and their proffession was war. 
 
On Teutoburger Wald you write: 
 
"They were tired, hungry, constantly on the move, in foreign territory, and as you stated, lost the element of surprise. Not to mention the fact that Ammianus was likely bringing up more troops as the days stretched on. " 
 
Soldiers have always been tired, cold, lost and hungry. 
The enemy has always done his best to foil your plans. 
 
But please try to convince your commanding officer that this is an adequate excuse for loosing ;-) 
 
And I really dont think that the Romans at TW stayed surpriced for more than the initial face of this protracted 
battle. 
 
They lost anyway to an enemy who took this golden opportunity to take them out one by one in a very 
messy and confused situation. 
 
Then you write: 
 
 
"Are you aware that the Romans made several punitive raids into german territory after this fact, and recovered 2 of thier eagles? I wonder how many germans died during those raids...slaughtered by one of the most efficient fighting machines ever witnessed in human history? " 
 
Germanicus was taken on an extended tour of the germanic countryside by Arminius where his major accomplishment was the annihilation of several germanic villages belonging to random tribes. 
 
He never captured Arminius. 
 
Arminius OTOH almost did a second Varus on Caecina? when he caught him on muddy grounds. Only his co-commanders insitence on plundering the fallen Romans gave the remaining Romans time to escape the trap. 
 
 
Cheers 
Wagnijo

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