12-20-2007, 12:08 PM
Both A.H.L. Jones, Sheppard Frere and John Morris wre (on different grounds) of the opinion that the dynasties of the later Northern heroic age could and did claim descent from long-preserved pedigrees going back on ancestors with recognizable Roman names.
John Morris was the most extreme in claiming that all of these were Romans who had been planted by the empire to rule over the adjacent tribes. Padarn Pesrut beccame Paternus 'of the Red Cloack', Cynhil became Quintilius, Cluim became Clemens, Coel became Coelestius, etc.
Personally I like the idea but I could not say if the etymology is correct. Also, while some later scribes separated names, it's of course impossible to tell which names (if any) of these were indeed separated, and therefore if there was indeed a 'Quintilius Clemens'.
It is not that far-fetched, because Theodosius the elder, the leader of the rescue expedition, is known to have carried out the same policy on the African borders of the empire only four years later, imposing Roman Christian praefecti over turbulent border tribes.
However, all to often this speculation is taken as 'real' information and the most fantastic castles are built upon that. But we even cannot be sure that the names from the pedigrees are a) historical or b) really derived from Roman names.
It would be useless to look for answers if these people ruled with the blessing of or under command of the Dux Britanniarum, if we can't even be sure if they existed.
John Morris was the most extreme in claiming that all of these were Romans who had been planted by the empire to rule over the adjacent tribes. Padarn Pesrut beccame Paternus 'of the Red Cloack', Cynhil became Quintilius, Cluim became Clemens, Coel became Coelestius, etc.
Personally I like the idea but I could not say if the etymology is correct. Also, while some later scribes separated names, it's of course impossible to tell which names (if any) of these were indeed separated, and therefore if there was indeed a 'Quintilius Clemens'.
It is not that far-fetched, because Theodosius the elder, the leader of the rescue expedition, is known to have carried out the same policy on the African borders of the empire only four years later, imposing Roman Christian praefecti over turbulent border tribes.
However, all to often this speculation is taken as 'real' information and the most fantastic castles are built upon that. But we even cannot be sure that the names from the pedigrees are a) historical or b) really derived from Roman names.
It would be useless to look for answers if these people ruled with the blessing of or under command of the Dux Britanniarum, if we can't even be sure if they existed.
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
