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Iphicratean Thureophoroi
#27
Quote:.......as you know, Paul, I am of the view that your suggestion is an extremely dubious one - and can only be even made feasible by testing it. Even in extreme 'crowd force' conditions ( which I doubt can be generated on an open battlefield, as opposed to a confined space),

If you are more than a few ranks inside a phalanx, you are in a confined space. The individuals are being packed tight by those at the edge of the formation- who just happen to be officers on the right where the most discipline is needed to maintain phalanx packing.

We already have evidence for this from reenactors- men passing out due to their inability to breathe in the pressure of the ranks and the reenactors having to stop to get them out of formation. So I consider the case closed for existance of this phenomenon. We can still of course argue whether its existance mattered to hoplites who could have fought in a way that did not allow these conditions to arise- as romans generally did.

That said, we have a phenomenon that can be deadly to men in a phalanx and an almost perfect means of protecting against it in the aspis. We are in a position to ask why men who can create a condition for which their foes are likely to suffer far more than they would not do it.


Quote: I don't believe that sufficient forces could be generated to 'crush' shields. In addition, given that the Aspis can support the weight of a man easily, it is hard to visualise a situation where the aspides themselves will suffer structural failure before the Humans sandwiched between them, if your postulated 'othismos' does take place !!

Remember that the aspis rests on a man's thighs and upperchest and the front of the left shoulder. How much weight do you think your thigh or left shoulder can bear before failure? The whole point of the domed shield is to protect the rib cage and belly which we could expect to fail before an aspis.

An aspis will surely fail before my thigh. Especially because the dome edge is not uniformly supported as it would be on the ground. Put one edge of your aspis up on a brick and watch what happen's to it's ability to bear weight. It is this force that a truss or brace inside will counteract.


Quote:The 'smashed' shields may be literary hyperbole ( though that is not usually Xenophon's style), or damaged by spear thrusts or even more likely, from being 'chopped' by swords, especially machaira, as you referred to......

This is highly unlikely given the word Xenophon chose. I would accept the former percussive crash before a notion that it was weapon damage. We have many instances of shields and armor being pierced by weapons, so why would he not follow the word convention for this?
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Messages In This Thread
Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-27-2008, 08:16 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 12:03 AM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 01:04 AM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by MeinPanzer - 10-28-2008, 05:22 AM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 01:21 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Demetrios - 10-28-2008, 01:33 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 01:52 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Demetrios - 10-28-2008, 02:29 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Sean Manning - 10-28-2008, 04:04 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 04:40 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 04:50 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by MeinPanzer - 10-28-2008, 05:10 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 05:16 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 05:41 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 05:42 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 07:18 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 07:24 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 09:23 PM
Iphicratean shields and grips - by Paullus Scipio - 10-28-2008, 10:05 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-28-2008, 10:21 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-28-2008, 10:48 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Demetrios - 10-29-2008, 01:42 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-29-2008, 01:49 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Demetrios - 10-29-2008, 02:08 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-29-2008, 05:37 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-29-2008, 07:06 PM
Iphicratean Thureos - by Paullus Scipio - 10-29-2008, 07:57 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by Kineas - 10-29-2008, 08:09 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-29-2008, 08:31 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-30-2008, 04:17 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-30-2008, 05:32 PM
Re: Iphicratean Thureophoroi - by PMBardunias - 10-30-2008, 06:16 PM

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