greek poleis

[Paralus]

Well, you cannot agree with the second and disagree with the first, since the second was to clarify my meaning in the first!

Not so much agree with the second (though I have no issue with the facts of league membership) rather that I don't see it as supporting the first assertion. As I noted, we should explore the second. There are differences in the type of league and "constitution" of same. I would say that the "concept" of the polis was nowhere near redundant by the close of the fifth century (or later for that matter). It is the paradox of virulently defended eleutherai and voluntary subsumation of same in symmachia that intrigues me. The two co-existed for the entire history of the polis.

I find the Achaean League an interesting animal. For all its its high-minded rhetoric it never baulked at stooping to mounting military excursions to Athens to force it to join it. Ditto Argos. Ancient Greeks will be ancient Greeks or old habits die hard.

As for the rest of your post, you have eloquently summarized all that I have written on this thread, perhaps more eloquently than myself, so I have no comments.

Just when I'd though eloquence had quit my fingertips. Perhaps we have bored the socks off the forum....