11-15-2008, 06:08 AM
Before you two get too carried away, and talk yourselves into believing the 'Spartans wore felt caps' theory, allow me to throw a little cold water in ! 
First, based on this small piece of Thucydides, we could only conclude that it is ambiguous to moderns as to whether felt or bronze piloi are meant.
Second, while soldiers out of action/in 'undress' MAY be depicted in iconography in felt piloi/helmet liners ( and that is not entirely certain) there is NO DEFINITE evidence (so far) that Greek Poleis Hoplites went into battle without bronze helmets of some kind........none at all, which removes any ambiguity at once, especially if Thucydides readers knew that. At the risk of stating the obvious, where a word has more than one meaning, it is context which decides.
( And yes, I am well aware that the intriguing possibility exists that Macedonian poorer warriors may have had leather/hide helmets; that Spanish contemporary warriors certainly did; and that the latin word 'galea' originally referred to a leather/hide helmet ( as opposed to 'cassis' - metal helmet)
Thirdly, lexicons are not 'gospel' - most were written a hundred years ago, and meanings are often no more than educated guesses, often wrong..... e.g. many still define 'longche' as 'pike!
Defining Thucydides use of the word as 'felt cuirass or jerkin' is another example - a wild guess, and obviously just plain wrong! "[something] couldn't keep out missiles; and when javelins hit their bodies the shafts broke off in their armour" - associate the two parts and you can see how the guess arose. :roll:
Fourthly, only a tiny fragment of literature survives....certainly not enough that a mere 34 references to piloi, the vast majority being references to the far more common cap, is in any way statistically significant to the use of bronze piloi as helmets !!
As to trying to suppose that they fought in helmet liners through arming in haste, Thucydides would have told us so - as he does when speaking of the over-whelming of the southern Guard-post; or assuming they were specifically "Marines" ( was there ever such a thing? ...a different/specific armament/training for ship-borne Hoplites/epibatai ?) ....that relies on far too many assumptions/guesses....Thucydides tells us they were a 'garrison', not epibatai
If there was a reason for them fighting, highly unusually, in 'helmet liners' or peasant caps, I am certain Thucydides would have remarked on it and told us why........
On grounds of probability therefore we may say that it is highly likely that Thucydides is referring to bronze piloi, and didn't need to specify 'bronze' because the context is clear.
First, based on this small piece of Thucydides, we could only conclude that it is ambiguous to moderns as to whether felt or bronze piloi are meant.
Second, while soldiers out of action/in 'undress' MAY be depicted in iconography in felt piloi/helmet liners ( and that is not entirely certain) there is NO DEFINITE evidence (so far) that Greek Poleis Hoplites went into battle without bronze helmets of some kind........none at all, which removes any ambiguity at once, especially if Thucydides readers knew that. At the risk of stating the obvious, where a word has more than one meaning, it is context which decides.
( And yes, I am well aware that the intriguing possibility exists that Macedonian poorer warriors may have had leather/hide helmets; that Spanish contemporary warriors certainly did; and that the latin word 'galea' originally referred to a leather/hide helmet ( as opposed to 'cassis' - metal helmet)
Thirdly, lexicons are not 'gospel' - most were written a hundred years ago, and meanings are often no more than educated guesses, often wrong..... e.g. many still define 'longche' as 'pike!
Defining Thucydides use of the word as 'felt cuirass or jerkin' is another example - a wild guess, and obviously just plain wrong! "[something] couldn't keep out missiles; and when javelins hit their bodies the shafts broke off in their armour" - associate the two parts and you can see how the guess arose. :roll:
Fourthly, only a tiny fragment of literature survives....certainly not enough that a mere 34 references to piloi, the vast majority being references to the far more common cap, is in any way statistically significant to the use of bronze piloi as helmets !!
As to trying to suppose that they fought in helmet liners through arming in haste, Thucydides would have told us so - as he does when speaking of the over-whelming of the southern Guard-post; or assuming they were specifically "Marines" ( was there ever such a thing? ...a different/specific armament/training for ship-borne Hoplites/epibatai ?) ....that relies on far too many assumptions/guesses....Thucydides tells us they were a 'garrison', not epibatai
If there was a reason for them fighting, highly unusually, in 'helmet liners' or peasant caps, I am certain Thucydides would have remarked on it and told us why........
On grounds of probability therefore we may say that it is highly likely that Thucydides is referring to bronze piloi, and didn't need to specify 'bronze' because the context is clear.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
