12-07-2008, 03:02 AM
Well, I certainly can't find much in your last post to disagree with ! 
D
....but there are a couple of points I'd just like to add to.....
Given that we are discussing a simplistic and arbitrary division of 'social classes' into 'Rich' 'Middle' and 'Poor', in this division where do those urban artisans/merchants/enterpreneurs that I referred to fit ? They are clearly generally wealthier than our small-holder 'Hoplite Class' but a potter with his small workshop could hardly qualify as one of Athens 'rich'....perhaps to answer my own question, it depends on their 'net worth' in Solonic terms....
Oh dear, another generalisation that could start another 'Myth' thread, I suspect. :lol: :lol:
Something tells me that if we were to put this generalisation under the microscope and look in detail, as we have with the Hoplites, we would find that not just the Athenian 'Hoi Polloi' provided the fleet's rowers, but that many came from the islands and Empire, many others were hired mercenaries etc.......
....but nevertheless, your point is well made, the 'Hoplite Class' certainly saw themselves, distinguished by their status and political rights, as a cut above the 'Hoi Polloi' - the 'Thetes' - as evidenced by the plays you refer to.
D ....but there are a couple of points I'd just like to add to.....
Quote:"Middle" is nothing more than a comparative term, and it's used here to describe people who were sociologically in-between those people who were the very rich and the proletarii who were the dirt-poor. What level of property they owned is a secondary question, entirely optional in my opinion. The point is that they had the equivalently modern standard of wealth extrapolated to those times.
Given that we are discussing a simplistic and arbitrary division of 'social classes' into 'Rich' 'Middle' and 'Poor', in this division where do those urban artisans/merchants/enterpreneurs that I referred to fit ? They are clearly generally wealthier than our small-holder 'Hoplite Class' but a potter with his small workshop could hardly qualify as one of Athens 'rich'....perhaps to answer my own question, it depends on their 'net worth' in Solonic terms....
Quote:A clear example of the difference between the middle class and the proletarians is represented in Salamis with the manning of the triremes. Whom was this navy peopled by?..... Thus who manned this navy was primarily the rowdy urban proletariat, unattached to its country and rather interested in the salary, not very different from proletarii as they've existed in other times of history.
Oh dear, another generalisation that could start another 'Myth' thread, I suspect. :lol: :lol:
Something tells me that if we were to put this generalisation under the microscope and look in detail, as we have with the Hoplites, we would find that not just the Athenian 'Hoi Polloi' provided the fleet's rowers, but that many came from the islands and Empire, many others were hired mercenaries etc.......
....but nevertheless, your point is well made, the 'Hoplite Class' certainly saw themselves, distinguished by their status and political rights, as a cut above the 'Hoi Polloi' - the 'Thetes' - as evidenced by the plays you refer to.
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
