05-03-2009, 02:51 AM
Hi Vortigern,
I was somewhat vague and may have exaggerated but the term 'dark' is, of course, relative. When I look at Spain in the sixth century under the Visigoths I read about local church synods and national councils. The ruling Goths spoke Latin and were (Arian) Christians who though themselves despised education nonetheless saw value in it. Ancient laws were largely preserved and new ones written down. Isidore of Seville was educated in Spain and taught himself to read Hebrew and Greek. Not that he was a typical product of his time but nonetheless is still a brilliant mind by most standards, IMO.
When juxtaposed against Britain of the same period the difference is rather stark. We see Brits fleeing from the island to Britany and even to Spain itself, forming an enclave known as Britonia. Back on the island the Germanic invaders wrought massive destruction while importing their paganism and language, thus permanently changing its character and hindering its development in the process.
I know this period is your passion so you're well placed to detect any errors on my part. Please do correct me if I've erred.
As for fourth century Spain, yes, you're absolutely right. I've read parts of Orosius recently and he does tell of the problems facing his native province. But I did not mention this period since it proved to be temporary as the arrival of the Goths brought much stability.
~Theo
Quote:That being said though, I have some reserves about your statement on Britain descending into a dark age, whilst in Spain a classical education was still available.
I was somewhat vague and may have exaggerated but the term 'dark' is, of course, relative. When I look at Spain in the sixth century under the Visigoths I read about local church synods and national councils. The ruling Goths spoke Latin and were (Arian) Christians who though themselves despised education nonetheless saw value in it. Ancient laws were largely preserved and new ones written down. Isidore of Seville was educated in Spain and taught himself to read Hebrew and Greek. Not that he was a typical product of his time but nonetheless is still a brilliant mind by most standards, IMO.
When juxtaposed against Britain of the same period the difference is rather stark. We see Brits fleeing from the island to Britany and even to Spain itself, forming an enclave known as Britonia. Back on the island the Germanic invaders wrought massive destruction while importing their paganism and language, thus permanently changing its character and hindering its development in the process.
I know this period is your passion so you're well placed to detect any errors on my part. Please do correct me if I've erred.
As for fourth century Spain, yes, you're absolutely right. I've read parts of Orosius recently and he does tell of the problems facing his native province. But I did not mention this period since it proved to be temporary as the arrival of the Goths brought much stability.
Quote:And even so, it seems that a monk called Gildas was by the early 6th century still able to get a classical education. Strange.Gildas was unknown to me. That is interesting even if he was educated in Gaul or Ireland. Southern Gaul sounds like the most likely place (in Septimania). As I said, things are relative.
Quote:I think that how the Romans acted under the religious title of "Christian" is no different from how they acted as "Pagans". They still maintained large armies and conquered lands, fought amongst themselves, had slaves, etc.It's interesting how the institution of slavery actually disappeared during the Middle Ages in Christian Europe and would not return until the Renaissance.
Quote:The official Church will have regretted it when a Christian sacrificed to a Pagan god, and the priests will have thought that the sacrificer had "gone Pagan", but that does not mean that he himself was of the same opinion. He may have thought that it was prudent to both attend Church and sacrifice to a local deity.Which helped fuel the preceived need for Inquisitions. Yes, it would be naive to think of most groups as homogenous in anytime period. But I'd say only about 5% of any religious group is really devout. Then there are more layers of varying degrees of orthodoxy. It's like pealing an onion. But I think Primus Pilus is more interested in nominal figures which is at any rate the best we can hope to guess at.
~Theo
Jaime
