06-26-2009, 11:15 AM
Quote:
The Goths/Gaets/Gothini/Gutones WERE a people with "clear ancestors." They knew exactly who their ancestors were and where they came from. Two royal families controlled both groups, Tyrfingi and Greutungi, from a time that was earlier than Pythias of Massilia (before the time of Herodotus). We have traces of their heritage recorded by Pythias, the isle of Balcia and the Amalcian Sea. These Baltic locations were named after the two families, the Balths and the Amals. They knew they emigrated from Scandia, as Jordanes points out. The Gothic "singers of songs" recorded their ancestors in the same way the Celts recorded theirs.
Yes, as they moved south they assimilated with other tribes, but never within the other tribes (Dacians included). Their first cultural exchanges were with the Celts and Sarmatians. They probably absorbed some of the remaining Dacian culture, but it was never heavily influential beyond the traditional reuse of nomens. They even brought individuals from Asia Minor into their culture; the mother of Bishop Ulfilas was a Cappadocian.
Once again, I point at the fruitlessness of talking about "physical appearance." Physically, Dacians were no different than Celts, Goths, Greeks, Romans... and a multitude of Germanic tribes which included Scandians, the people from whom the Goths originated. The Goths had a separate and distinct language which was only remotely related to Dacian or Thracian in the sense that it was Indo-European.
For a period that exceeded 800 years, the Goths were controlled by the two familes mentioned above. Theodoric the Great was an Amal. And the Kingdom of Toulouse was founded by Theodoric, the son-in-law of Alaric and a Balth.
Oh boy, you see, thats why i said about double standards in interpretation of Jordanes "Getica". So, for you is correct just what he said that Goths are originated from Scandza, but you let asside what he said next, the fact that he included in history of this Goths ( originaly Got, the Goth word appear just in medieval times from what i know ) the Dacian ( Get/Getae ) history, consider it as the Goths history. So, if you said is true what he said, then Goths and Gets ( Dacians ) are one and the same people as a point. Tyrfingi and Greutungi can be a part of the peoples called Goths, but their are not "the Goths" for sure, the classical Goths. Their origin is not cert one, the story with Scandza is more like inspired by Eneida of VErgilius, with Romans come from Troy, is a kind of fabulous begining from some people of person, but with little conection with reality. There is no archeologic evidence to prouve for sure an origin of Goths from Scandinavia, but we have cultures as Santana de Mures/ Cerneackhov who are clearly established as being of Goths. About Dacians and Goths, i didnt say nothing about physical appearence, but about physical presence of Dacians among the Goths, dont know why you still say about appearence, of course they are looking the same probably. And i said about Dacian heritage, because Goths themselves related with this, and consider Dacian/Getian history as their own history, and in Spain for ex., as Issidor from Sevilla said, the nobles needed to prouve, or at least afirm that their ancestors was Getians ( Dacians ) and names as Dicineus, Buruista or Zalmoxis was used and know by them. What influence you want more ? As well, in ancient times, Goths was never considered as Germanic peoples, but most of the time they was named Getae too. As i said, the opinion of them being a truly Germanic peoples appear later, in medieval time and in romantic times, with appearence of nationalism too. I still wait to tell me when appear first time the so called text of Goths ( no from which period are considered to be ), germanic ones, and if you know when the german language was established ( Martin Luther for ex. use a lot of latin words, in his Bible, and german language as we know today, was a creation from XVIII century of Adelung ).
Teodoric the Great make a church too, and i will find some pics from there, where the 3 "kings" from the East, who bring gifts to Jesus when was born, are represented as Dacian Tarabostes ( Nobles ), and the same king is the one who asked Cassiodorus to write a history of his peoples, called De origine actibusque GETARUM ( and not Gothorum, as some may expected ). This show in my opinion, that Goths was a mix of different peoples, Germanic, Dacian, Sarmatian, but who have a strong Dacian ( Getian ) heritage, among the Germanic one.
As well, Goths appear quite late in hisotry, for ex. Dio Cassius in III cen. BC doesnt mention them, and even later, they are named both Getae and Goths ( Get and Got ), so what you said about them as being present even before Herodotus era is more like a presumtion, then a real fact.
Razvan A.
