Getae and Dacians? Are they the same? Or is this unknowable?

[Rumo]

Though the other participants to this discussion already brought some relevant examples, there are some important written testimonies that in many large armies from Antiquity there was no common language for all soldiers and the orders had to be translated for troops not speaking the language of the top hierarchy. The most famous of them all is probably Xenophon's Anabasis. Here we have the Greeks receiving orders from Pigres, one of Cyrus's interpreters. Another episode is the one before the battle of Cunaxa, when Pategyas shouted in Persian and Greek that the enemy is approaching. Therefore I believe my point stands, having bi(poly)lingual commanders is enough and there is clear evidence for that. We have no reason to assume that Gothic armies were entirely formed of Germanic speakers (with some learning it as a second language).

Alan, I don't think that scholarly debate is just one of ideologies, because in essence Goffart's request is simple enough: evidence. For you and Wolfram that long-lasting and sometimes incredibly accurate folk memory is an unquestioned premise. Alanus is no more an archaic memory than Romulus and Remus, than Hellen, Dorus, Aeolus, Thessalus and hundreds if not thousands similar eponymous ancestors from cultures worldwide. For some any wordplay can be an etymology (à propos de got-gut, read this), but etymologies may be right or wrong for historical linguists. There's little if any doubt that many Romance words come from (Vulgar) Latin.

Now let's look at Goffart's amazing postulation in regard to oral history: "The French of today can choose to descend from Lascaux cave people or Gallo-Celts or Franks or none of the above; the English can descend from Stonehenge builders or Celto-Britons or Saxons or Normans. These are learned choices."

How can he say that? There is no oral tradition linking the French to the Lascaux cave people. "Lascaux" in an archaeological term. And no way can the English descend from Stonehenge builders through any form of "history," be it oral or written.

Please read carefully the entire paragraph. It's about a distant past which is "is collective and deliberately taught or adopted". We learn today that some of the earlier inhabitants of the territory we call now England were the Stonehenge builders, and in France we find the Lascaux cave people. Any relatively educated person can claim descendency from these populations, as educated Franks claimed Trojan ancestry or educated Goths claimed a Scandinavian one. As Goffart concluded, these are learned choices.