11-21-2009, 08:26 AM
Salve Dragos
"Dac? aceasta era situa?ia etnic? a Tomisului – chiar dac? poate exagerat? de poetul tomitan-, atunci nu ar fi nici o mirare dac? ?i credin?ele ?i practicile religioase ale acestor oameni vor fi fost rezultatul unui vechi sincretism geto-grec. De aceea sunt de p?rere c? acest kaga era, cel pu?in pentru tomitani, greci ?i ge?i deopotriv?, termenul curent folosit pentru un concept autohton – cuprinzând poate un anume fel de jertf?, oferit? cu un anume ritual zeului autohton H?r?s. Caracterul dominant autohton al acestui concept a impus folosirea ?n inscrip?ie a termenului originar ?i adecvat, atâta vreme cât dedicantul se adresa localnicilor, greci ?i ge?i, care ?tiau ce înseamn?."
This is the text (in romanian), where is said that the faiths and religious practices of peoples of Tomis are very possible and more likely the result of an older geto-greek syncretism, and a term from dacian language was used by by getae/dacians and greeks during a kind of ritual performed for an autochtounus (getic) deity. This means that greeks from city of Tomis adopted partialy elements from local dacians culture, so it was not just a greek influence over a supposedly more "barbarian" people, but otherwise too, which is a kind of unique thing in the raports betwen greco-roman world and "barbarians" (ones more barbarians then others). And yes, is very possible that some dacians, mostly nobles or merchants, to know greek language (as it was said in the page you send about Dromichaete), but this was not spread on the entire peoples, and greek culture wasnt that strong to influence the dacian one (even in contact areas) so change it. Quite contrary, we know that the cult of godess Bendis was celebrated in Greece (where it was finaly superposed/counfounded/mixed with Artemis if i am not mistake), where was bring by thracian womens, from an northern area (Dacia). I mention previous the influence of orphism as well, so the influences was from both ways, and not necesarily a dominance of greeks (and i speak now just from cultural point of view). So, its even more obvious (at least for me), that dacian culture (and language) if it was able to influence the greeks from the contact areas, was more then able to influence less developed cultures as schytians/sarmatians (there is some mentions that Zalmoxis was the god of schytians as well, even if is possible to be a confusion, agree).
About the other chronicars who writed about Zalmoxis, and possible just repeat what Herodotus said (in your opinion), do you think that if the things wasnt like that (as Herodotus said), they wouldnt write otherwise? Dacians had a lot of relations and contacts, comercial, militar, even cultural, with both greeks and romans. Do you think that if they had different believes or religion, all those peoples didnt see, and mention, instead of repeating Herodotus?
In my opinion, greeks considered Zalmoxis a slave (even if Herodotus didnt believe that) or student of Pythagora exactly to point out the fact that getae was so impressed and have in the highest regard someone who was teached by a greek, so the greeks are in fact, the ones who influenced the dacians. They didnt want to accept that other peoples can create their own phylosophy, or a more spiritual religion, and when they saw some analogy with something they had too, automaticaly presume that they was the ones where all originated. In fact they was influenced by orphism, from southern thracians, a current who had some similarities with zamolxianism, and most of historians (from what i read) agree that Zalmoxis had a cult who hold elements from both chtonian and uranian cults, meaning that is much older than Pythagora times.
About if the cult existed or not, well, i think the fact it was mentioned by so many peoples back then is a good enough prouve. As well, elements from today folklore have resemblences with what we know about zamolxian religion. For ex. in the "burial songs" (different and older then "lamentation" ones singing in some places to burials) singing to guide the dead one to the road to the "other world", that "other world" is a heavenly like one, and the only one who exist beside "this world", the same as in zamolxian doctrine, without the existence of another underworld, hellish one like in other old european religions or in christianity ofcourse.
"Dac? aceasta era situa?ia etnic? a Tomisului – chiar dac? poate exagerat? de poetul tomitan-, atunci nu ar fi nici o mirare dac? ?i credin?ele ?i practicile religioase ale acestor oameni vor fi fost rezultatul unui vechi sincretism geto-grec. De aceea sunt de p?rere c? acest kaga era, cel pu?in pentru tomitani, greci ?i ge?i deopotriv?, termenul curent folosit pentru un concept autohton – cuprinzând poate un anume fel de jertf?, oferit? cu un anume ritual zeului autohton H?r?s. Caracterul dominant autohton al acestui concept a impus folosirea ?n inscrip?ie a termenului originar ?i adecvat, atâta vreme cât dedicantul se adresa localnicilor, greci ?i ge?i, care ?tiau ce înseamn?."
This is the text (in romanian), where is said that the faiths and religious practices of peoples of Tomis are very possible and more likely the result of an older geto-greek syncretism, and a term from dacian language was used by by getae/dacians and greeks during a kind of ritual performed for an autochtounus (getic) deity. This means that greeks from city of Tomis adopted partialy elements from local dacians culture, so it was not just a greek influence over a supposedly more "barbarian" people, but otherwise too, which is a kind of unique thing in the raports betwen greco-roman world and "barbarians" (ones more barbarians then others). And yes, is very possible that some dacians, mostly nobles or merchants, to know greek language (as it was said in the page you send about Dromichaete), but this was not spread on the entire peoples, and greek culture wasnt that strong to influence the dacian one (even in contact areas) so change it. Quite contrary, we know that the cult of godess Bendis was celebrated in Greece (where it was finaly superposed/counfounded/mixed with Artemis if i am not mistake), where was bring by thracian womens, from an northern area (Dacia). I mention previous the influence of orphism as well, so the influences was from both ways, and not necesarily a dominance of greeks (and i speak now just from cultural point of view). So, its even more obvious (at least for me), that dacian culture (and language) if it was able to influence the greeks from the contact areas, was more then able to influence less developed cultures as schytians/sarmatians (there is some mentions that Zalmoxis was the god of schytians as well, even if is possible to be a confusion, agree).
About the other chronicars who writed about Zalmoxis, and possible just repeat what Herodotus said (in your opinion), do you think that if the things wasnt like that (as Herodotus said), they wouldnt write otherwise? Dacians had a lot of relations and contacts, comercial, militar, even cultural, with both greeks and romans. Do you think that if they had different believes or religion, all those peoples didnt see, and mention, instead of repeating Herodotus?
In my opinion, greeks considered Zalmoxis a slave (even if Herodotus didnt believe that) or student of Pythagora exactly to point out the fact that getae was so impressed and have in the highest regard someone who was teached by a greek, so the greeks are in fact, the ones who influenced the dacians. They didnt want to accept that other peoples can create their own phylosophy, or a more spiritual religion, and when they saw some analogy with something they had too, automaticaly presume that they was the ones where all originated. In fact they was influenced by orphism, from southern thracians, a current who had some similarities with zamolxianism, and most of historians (from what i read) agree that Zalmoxis had a cult who hold elements from both chtonian and uranian cults, meaning that is much older than Pythagora times.
About if the cult existed or not, well, i think the fact it was mentioned by so many peoples back then is a good enough prouve. As well, elements from today folklore have resemblences with what we know about zamolxian religion. For ex. in the "burial songs" (different and older then "lamentation" ones singing in some places to burials) singing to guide the dead one to the road to the "other world", that "other world" is a heavenly like one, and the only one who exist beside "this world", the same as in zamolxian doctrine, without the existence of another underworld, hellish one like in other old european religions or in christianity ofcourse.
Razvan A.
