The Dory

[PMBardunias]

Overall--I think the trend of military history is that the creation of elite units usually indicates that the quality of the military overall is, in fact, declining.

I love when we argue these things down to a consensus. I agree completely that the rise of elite units reflects a percieved lack of training among non-elite units. I see the tie in to longer dorys in exactly the opposite manner as you though. Because I believe that the dory was used almost exclusively to jab overhand until one side broke, I think it takes much greater skill to use the longer and/or longer forward extending dory. I have practiced pointing long spears in this grip and it is damned difficult and demanding on the wrist. The new elite units and better trained mercs, and simply stronger from training, could make use of these longer spears while perhaps for lesser trained men the added length was more of a detriment for all the reasons you mentioned.

We don't really know (accepting it occurred at all) when the spears reach lengthened. Obviously it was pretty long by Thermopylae- substantially longer than the persian spears which were themselves taller than a man. So the whole tie in to training may go back a century earlier, when much of the panoply was in flux.

As to spear fencing--I'm going to back off that one. Instead, I'll make a dozen counter-balanced 10 foot dories and we'll do some "mid handle" vs "long handle" fighting in August--at least 6 vs 6--and maybe make a video. It won't be anythign that will satisfy all of us--but it might help.

Be careful, a 10' dory counterbalanced to a third from the rear is the equivalent of a 13 1/3 foot spear. Probably nearing too long to use one handed effectivly. I've heard anecdotally from reenactors and SCAers that 12' is the upper limit for one hand use, but of course that is from tall modern men mostly using it underhanded.

I'd stick with at most 9' balanced to 1/3 from the rear, which is a 12' spear or 8', equalling a 10 1/2' spear. You can just make the 12' spear and not worry about the weighting because the difference in handling between that and the 9' rear weighted dory will be minimal when compared to the difference between a 12' and an 8'-9' mid-balanced spear.

Although you cannot prove that the longer spear could not be used effectively, because of the question or training, you surely can prove that it could be used as well as outlining under what conditions favor it. I'd love to see video.