10-16-2009, 02:52 AM
I shall just confine myself to some odds and ends to respond to...
Scott wrote:
"We are actually never told it is Persian manufacture, just that it was taken as booty at Issus. There is no evidence that this specific piece of armor was of Persian make."
...true enough, though the inference is that it was. Of relevance to the subject of this thread is that it is described as 'quilted', and Tube-and-Yoke corselets which appear to be quilted are also shown being worn by Persians in the 'Alexander Mosaic'...
Scott wrote:
"Yes, that is true. But I also don't consider Alexander or the Macedonians "mainland Greeks."…… Many Macedonian tombs have been unearthed and none have anything remotely similar inside them."
....I shouldn't seek support from Macedonian tomb finds if I were you, Scott! :wink:
Many warrior tombs have been excavated (hundreds in fact) and many contain Tube-and-Yoke fittings. Unfortunately for your point of view, they also contain many leather fragments found in the torso area, but not a shred of linen! It is a pity that (so far) the full excavation reports have not become available...
Giannis wrote:
@ To Paul M, who ironically implied in an older post that "stolas" could mean leather thorakes, well he wouldn't have said so if he knew that the form of the word isn't correct to be used in this context.
...I was going to point to the LSJ entry, but Paul B. beat me to it !
D
Kineas/Chris wrote:
"There are no contemporary mentions of linen armor, save the one line in Alcaeus, and he's Lesbian-Aeolian."
At the risk of being pedantic, Alcaeus is not quite contemporary with the appearance of the Tube-and-Yoke in mainland Greece.
He wrote circa 620-600 B.C. in Lesbos and was a contemporay of Sappho, and his poetry only survives in fragments....all his known 'military' poetry, like that of Homer, seems to refer to the Trojan war ( another fragment refers to chariots, for example) and in any event he was writing at least 70 years or so before the first appearance of the Tube-and-Yoke corselet in greek art....and clearly it is impossible for him to be referring to something which didn't exist yet !!!
Ruben wrote:
"This is pretty clear evidence of a Classical Greek use of linen cuirasses (despite the fact that these could be Ionian Greeks), and so it seems clear that leather and linen cuirasses were in use at the same time, though it seems that at least in Xenophon's day, leather was the primary material in use."
Aaaah!...it warms the cockles of my heart to see someone else draw this conclusion apart from me !! D lol:
Scott wrote:
"We are actually never told it is Persian manufacture, just that it was taken as booty at Issus. There is no evidence that this specific piece of armor was of Persian make."
...true enough, though the inference is that it was. Of relevance to the subject of this thread is that it is described as 'quilted', and Tube-and-Yoke corselets which appear to be quilted are also shown being worn by Persians in the 'Alexander Mosaic'...
Scott wrote:
"Yes, that is true. But I also don't consider Alexander or the Macedonians "mainland Greeks."…… Many Macedonian tombs have been unearthed and none have anything remotely similar inside them."
....I shouldn't seek support from Macedonian tomb finds if I were you, Scott! :wink:
Many warrior tombs have been excavated (hundreds in fact) and many contain Tube-and-Yoke fittings. Unfortunately for your point of view, they also contain many leather fragments found in the torso area, but not a shred of linen! It is a pity that (so far) the full excavation reports have not become available...
Giannis wrote:
@ To Paul M, who ironically implied in an older post that "stolas" could mean leather thorakes, well he wouldn't have said so if he knew that the form of the word isn't correct to be used in this context.
...I was going to point to the LSJ entry, but Paul B. beat me to it !
D Kineas/Chris wrote:
"There are no contemporary mentions of linen armor, save the one line in Alcaeus, and he's Lesbian-Aeolian."
At the risk of being pedantic, Alcaeus is not quite contemporary with the appearance of the Tube-and-Yoke in mainland Greece.
He wrote circa 620-600 B.C. in Lesbos and was a contemporay of Sappho, and his poetry only survives in fragments....all his known 'military' poetry, like that of Homer, seems to refer to the Trojan war ( another fragment refers to chariots, for example) and in any event he was writing at least 70 years or so before the first appearance of the Tube-and-Yoke corselet in greek art....and clearly it is impossible for him to be referring to something which didn't exist yet !!!
Ruben wrote:
"This is pretty clear evidence of a Classical Greek use of linen cuirasses (despite the fact that these could be Ionian Greeks), and so it seems clear that leather and linen cuirasses were in use at the same time, though it seems that at least in Xenophon's day, leather was the primary material in use."
Aaaah!...it warms the cockles of my heart to see someone else draw this conclusion apart from me !!
D lol:
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
