Spartan Mora regiments at Battle of Plataea

[Paullus Scipio]

Ghostmojo/Howard wrote:

But is Diodoros more reliable than Herodotos? H not only drew upon Athenian sources but also directly upon Spartan - one of whom he categorically lists as a source: a certain Arkhias (a leading aristocrat) who he actually met in Sparta itself. It is of course possible he neglected to mention the Perioikoi but unlikely, as he goes into such detail about contributors to the army elsewhere.

Diodorus, Justin and Trogus are drawing on an alternative source to Herodotus, probably Ephorus, which is contaminated by "legendary" traditions about Thermopylae but also preserves imporatant details ....don't forget Diodorus/Ephorus and Herodotus are agreed that 4,000 Peloponnesian Hoplites marched north - it is just that H. doesn't tell us who aprox 1,000 of them were, and D. does. You referred to Cartledge earlier - he accepts that the 1,000 or so were 'perioikoi'.

The bottom line from your post appears to be that Herodotus categorically tells us the King's power was paramount in war ( i.e. he could over-rule the Ephors/Gerousia/Assembly of Sparta...or put another way, "had the final say".) Diodorus/Ephorus account of Leonidas' actions would appear to confirm this. Apparently Cartledge does not accept this, on the basis of Herodotus' account of the power struggle between Cleomenes and Demeratus?... perhaps you could elaborate briefly on his reasoning?

Paul B. wrote:

This is a problem, but a bigger problem to me is that the basic unit of enomotia seems to be tied into the Syssition system. Since niether Perioci or non-citizens could be in the syssitia, this is problematic. I have a hard time believing that they would comingle so intimately in war when they could not in life.

Ghost-mojo wrote:

I agree Paul. There would be more than an element of elitism within the homoioi ranks (even probably shared by hypomeiones, mothakes, etc.) and down-nose-looking towards the perioikoi

...It is evident from these sentiments that neither of you gentlemen have seen military service ! D
I would echo Stefanos' comment that it helps if you have "walked the beat"...

In fact, virtually all modern armies, and for hundreds of years, have followed this system pioneered in Sparta. The Officers, and also the senior N.C.O's invariably "mess" ( eat and socialise) in separate 'syssitions'/messes from the men. This began, as in Sparta, because they were usually of different social classes, and Howard is correct in setting out the likely atitudes of 'Homioi' toward their inferiors, and then 'Spartans' toward 'outsiders' etc - but the tradition/custom is still retained today !
Why?
Consider the other 'Poleis'/city-states, where neighbour served alongside neighbour , often taking turns to command with the result that all felt 'equal' enough to debate and even argue with orders.....
Such a thing did not happen in Sparta - where all the 'Homioi' formed the 'officer' class. ( though occasionally experienced officers might protest a 'dumb' order, such as the famous "let them go by" regarding the Thebans). There the lower ranks did not become overly 'familiar' with their superiors, and thus discipline was able to be enforced ! It is for the sake of discipline that it is essential that troops and their officers are kept at 'arms length' to a degree, through the mechanism of separate 'syssitions'/messes. The result, in modern armies at least, is disciplined teamwork...... which the Lakedaemonian Army also had .