Spartan Mora regiments at Battle of Plataea

[Ghostmojo]

Hi Paul M - my own support of Paul B was largely in reference to the mixing (in whatever fashion) of Spartiatoi and Perioikoi within brigades (and also the former's probable feelings of superiority), however, I was not insisting the latter would necessarily have the same issues in reverse (although they may have done). I am accepting the fact that it may or may not have happened and tried to accommodate the reasons for this. The weight of the argument in favour of perioikic supplementing is, however, stronger to me. This discussion has largely been about the configuration of the phalanx in relation to declining Spartiate figures. Other aspects such as the power of the Kings have also crept in. It is all good and enjoyable discussions though, from which we learn and re-evaluate our understandings and perceptions.

Oh and yes - you are right - I have never seen military service. I am simply not the kind of person who could ever happily take orders from anybody on a regular unquestioning basis :lol: . I have known people who have been in various parts of the British armed forces (including relatives) and am well aware of the deeply conservative nature of their traditions. Look at the Royal Marines - their history goes back (in one shape or another) to not long after interregnum England had ceased being a republic with the restoration. The Red Coat itself (still worn ceremonially by some units) goes back to Cromwell's New Model Army! I can easily understand deeply held patterns of belief and behaviour in a military context - just as in any other facet of human life.

... The bottom line from your post appears to be that Herodotus categorically tells us the King's power was paramount in war ( i.e. he could over-rule the Ephors/Gerousia/Assembly of Sparta...or put another way, "had the final say".) Diodorus/Ephorus account of Leonidas' actions would appear to confirm this. Apparently Cartledge does not accept this, on the basis of Herodotus' account of the power struggle between Cleomenes and Demeratus?... perhaps you could elaborate briefly on his reasoning?

Sorry Paul I'm not quite following that :?

...this seems like an attractive idea at first sight, but alas, there are a number of major objections to it. Firstly the 'Constitution' tells us that the King's power was paramount in war, so he had the power to mobilise as many as he thought necessary...

I think his primacy in this area mainly became apparent outside Lakonian borders. The King/s would surely have discussed the size of forces required with the Gerousia and Ephors and then the latter issuing the age call-up. I can't say whether the King/s (or selected Army commander King alone) could over-rule the larger body. I am inclined to think not, for all the reasons/references I mentioned earlier. How do you view the issue of the Karneia limiting the mobilisation of the full regular army?