12-18-2009, 01:24 AM
IIRC, we have noted before on another thread ( with regard to the ‘Kontos’ in the “Cataphract and Clibanarii” thread ) the extreme difficulties of trying to determine spear lengths from Art; - because it is not to scale; may be depicting ‘three quarter’ views or fore-shortened ones - see Robert’s photos in that thread; the artist often changes proportions for artistic effect; or because of the size of the background; certainly isn’t using measurements - usually applying simply ‘what looks right’ and so on…..Still, it is pretty much all we have to go on, so perhaps we should make some attempt.
First, let us decide on the characteristics of the ‘Xyston’. The two best depictions are the one on the Alexander mosaic and the Kinch’s tomb painting. These show a lance some 12 ft long, or perhaps a little longer, to a practical maximum of 15ft/4.7m. (Markle tried a longer one, but discovered it impractical to recover, and so had to be abandoned after first thrust ; Connolly determined by practical experiment that 15 ft/4.7m was the maximum that could be ‘recovered’ following a thrust, and that sideways. Compare John Conyards pracical experiences in the above-mentioned thread). C.F. Aelian’s ‘Tactica’ statement that a cavalry ‘sarissa’(‘xyston’) was 10 cubits/15 ft/4.4 m, and not less than 8 cubits/ 12 ft/ 3.7 m long.
The lance is tapered and has a heavy counterweight, apparently in the form of a spearhead, and hollow point, so that it can be wielded underarm about one quarter to one third of the way from the rear ( though this is not unique – the earlier Greek cavalry ‘Kamax’ was also tapered, with a heavy spear-butt, and held a third of the way from the rear, but was around 8-9 ft/2.5-2.7 m long).
With this in mind, let us examine Ruben’s examples
Ruben wrote:
This is famous for showing a ‘sarissa’ in action. The ‘sarissa’ size is now known with a little more exactitude, following the discovery of the length of the ‘Attic’ cubit, likely used by Theophrastus, which brings the ‘sarissa’ length roughly into line with Polybius at 18-20 ft/5.5 – 6.2 m ). See Connolly JRMES 11 , 2000.
1.Comparing the length of the cavalryman’s spear, it is nothing like two-thirds or more of the ‘sarissa’ length, but more like one-third i.e. aprox 6-7 ft/1.8-2.1 m, the length of a ‘longche’ ( around 6 ft/1.8 m) or perhaps a ‘Hasta/Doru’ ( 7-9 ft/2.1-2.7 m), though it is held to the rear.
2. Horses 13-14 hands high (52- 56 inches /1.3-1.4 m tall), such as ancient cavalry horses, have a length ratio of 15:20 ( breast to rump) giving a length of roughly 70-74 inches long, say 6 ft/1.8 m roughly. The two leftward facing horses are exactly the same length ( say 6 ft) and the cavalryman’s spear is about 1.5 times this – again a spear length of around 9 ft/2.7 m.
3. The riders are out of proportion to the horses ( a seated rider is roughly 4 ft/1.2 m from heel to top of head) by a third. If the shield and spear are in proportion to the body, as we might expect, then the spear is around 6 ft long at most….
Whichever proportions are used ( and bearing in mind these can only ever be very approximate), we get a spear-length of around 6-9 ft, but not the12-15 ft of the ‘xyston’. It is just the wrong ‘order of magnitude’ to be a 12 -15 ft ‘xyston’.
Similar ‘guesstimating’ produces much the same results….the riders are too large proportionally, and whether one uses the horse length or rider height, we get a range of roughly 6-9 ft, not 12-15 ft, ( even allowing for some lost length). The angle the spears are held at, and the fact that they are held centrally also argue strongly against them being ‘xysta’.
This is more problematic, for the rear of the spear is missing. If we assume ‘rear’ grip, then proportional to the oversize rider, we get a little over 4 ft in front of the hand and 6 ft overall; assuming a centre grip, around 8 ft long.
If we use the horses proportions ( problematic since it is turned toward the viewer and hence foreshortened, rather than in profile)we get around 7 ft overall (rear grip) or 10.5 ft ( central grip) – still not the minimum size of 12 ft, and significantly less than 14 ft.
Again, the spear length proportional to the oversized rider is around 8-9 ft BUT proportional to the undersized horse, well over 12 ft and close to 14-15 ft, it is held closer to the rear, and seems to have a heavy butt-spike! This one might well be a ‘xyston’/’cavalry ‘sarissa’ (but only if proportional to the under-sized horse) !
Now, as I have emphasised already, all of this is just estimation, and the artists were not trying to be ‘photographically’ realistic for all the reasons stated above, but the overall impression is that all these examples are ‘of the order of magnitude’ of’ longche’ or ‘hasta/dory’ at best, and not the almost twice as long ‘xyston’. Nothing can be safely concluded of course.
On a different tack, I would be interested in John Conyard's opinion of how practical it is to wield a large circular shield with his 4 m 'kontos' on horseback ( of course mediaeval knights did, but with less clumsy kite shields, and bigger horses)......
D
First, let us decide on the characteristics of the ‘Xyston’. The two best depictions are the one on the Alexander mosaic and the Kinch’s tomb painting. These show a lance some 12 ft long, or perhaps a little longer, to a practical maximum of 15ft/4.7m. (Markle tried a longer one, but discovered it impractical to recover, and so had to be abandoned after first thrust ; Connolly determined by practical experiment that 15 ft/4.7m was the maximum that could be ‘recovered’ following a thrust, and that sideways. Compare John Conyards pracical experiences in the above-mentioned thread). C.F. Aelian’s ‘Tactica’ statement that a cavalry ‘sarissa’(‘xyston’) was 10 cubits/15 ft/4.4 m, and not less than 8 cubits/ 12 ft/ 3.7 m long.
The lance is tapered and has a heavy counterweight, apparently in the form of a spearhead, and hollow point, so that it can be wielded underarm about one quarter to one third of the way from the rear ( though this is not unique – the earlier Greek cavalry ‘Kamax’ was also tapered, with a heavy spear-butt, and held a third of the way from the rear, but was around 8-9 ft/2.5-2.7 m long).
With this in mind, let us examine Ruben’s examples
Ruben wrote:
Quote:The well-known Pergamene battle plaque, showing either Pergamene or Roman cavalry.
This is famous for showing a ‘sarissa’ in action. The ‘sarissa’ size is now known with a little more exactitude, following the discovery of the length of the ‘Attic’ cubit, likely used by Theophrastus, which brings the ‘sarissa’ length roughly into line with Polybius at 18-20 ft/5.5 – 6.2 m ). See Connolly JRMES 11 , 2000.
1.Comparing the length of the cavalryman’s spear, it is nothing like two-thirds or more of the ‘sarissa’ length, but more like one-third i.e. aprox 6-7 ft/1.8-2.1 m, the length of a ‘longche’ ( around 6 ft/1.8 m) or perhaps a ‘Hasta/Doru’ ( 7-9 ft/2.1-2.7 m), though it is held to the rear.
2. Horses 13-14 hands high (52- 56 inches /1.3-1.4 m tall), such as ancient cavalry horses, have a length ratio of 15:20 ( breast to rump) giving a length of roughly 70-74 inches long, say 6 ft/1.8 m roughly. The two leftward facing horses are exactly the same length ( say 6 ft) and the cavalryman’s spear is about 1.5 times this – again a spear length of around 9 ft/2.7 m.
3. The riders are out of proportion to the horses ( a seated rider is roughly 4 ft/1.2 m from heel to top of head) by a third. If the shield and spear are in proportion to the body, as we might expect, then the spear is around 6 ft long at most….
Whichever proportions are used ( and bearing in mind these can only ever be very approximate), we get a spear-length of around 6-9 ft, but not the12-15 ft of the ‘xyston’. It is just the wrong ‘order of magnitude’ to be a 12 -15 ft ‘xyston’.
Quote:Two stelae of cavalrymen from Apollonia:
Similar ‘guesstimating’ produces much the same results….the riders are too large proportionally, and whether one uses the horse length or rider height, we get a range of roughly 6-9 ft, not 12-15 ft, ( even allowing for some lost length). The angle the spears are held at, and the fact that they are held centrally also argue strongly against them being ‘xysta’.
Quote:A painted glass cup from Begram, depicting a copy of a Ptolemaic battle scene:
This is more problematic, for the rear of the spear is missing. If we assume ‘rear’ grip, then proportional to the oversize rider, we get a little over 4 ft in front of the hand and 6 ft overall; assuming a centre grip, around 8 ft long.
If we use the horses proportions ( problematic since it is turned toward the viewer and hence foreshortened, rather than in profile)we get around 7 ft overall (rear grip) or 10.5 ft ( central grip) – still not the minimum size of 12 ft, and significantly less than 14 ft.
Quote:A coin from Cibyra:
Again, the spear length proportional to the oversized rider is around 8-9 ft BUT proportional to the undersized horse, well over 12 ft and close to 14-15 ft, it is held closer to the rear, and seems to have a heavy butt-spike! This one might well be a ‘xyston’/’cavalry ‘sarissa’ (but only if proportional to the under-sized horse) !
Now, as I have emphasised already, all of this is just estimation, and the artists were not trying to be ‘photographically’ realistic for all the reasons stated above, but the overall impression is that all these examples are ‘of the order of magnitude’ of’ longche’ or ‘hasta/dory’ at best, and not the almost twice as long ‘xyston’. Nothing can be safely concluded of course.
On a different tack, I would be interested in John Conyard's opinion of how practical it is to wield a large circular shield with his 4 m 'kontos' on horseback ( of course mediaeval knights did, but with less clumsy kite shields, and bigger horses)......
D
"dulce et decorum est pro patria mori " - Horace
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
(It is a sweet and proper thing to die for ones country)
"No son-of-a-bitch ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country" - George C Scott as General George S. Patton
Paul McDonnell-Staff
