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Macedonian Soldier Stele
Quote:I agree with Paul that weapons of and over 4m are used without a large shield, but would suggest to reach their full potential you need to use them two handed. You can carry a 4m long lance in one hand. You can hit a target with it using one hand. But to use it well, accurately and powerfully you have to use two hands. Unless of course you are Alexander the killer of men, who can use one, and disdain a helmet.

But I have my doubts over the idea of a light sarissa moving over time to a heavier kontos with a larger diameter. The diameter of lance head sockets don’t vary that much, and while this may not account for some form of tampered shaft, I still find it hard to accept a large difference between the weapons. I appreciate some see the sarissa as having a Greek or Hellenistic origin, while others see the kontos as having a more eastern origin. But as a late Roman I am familiar with Procopius calling cavalry spears doru, as opposed to the smaller infantry spears he calls by a diminutive word, doration. Agathias calls the long cavalry lance the sarissa, while Maurice uses the word kontarion. But kontos, sarissa or even doru, it is weight and size that dictates function, and we are considering a long lance, used two handed for accuracy and power, without large shields. I’m now heading for the fire exit.

Here is a Hiero II coin (of Syracuse), depicting one of his heavy horsemen...
[Image: HieroII-greathippeis.jpg]

and another,
[Image: HieroIIrider.jpg]

The date is around 220ish BCE.

They both wear linothorakes (colored in vertical stripes probably) and evolved corinthians/ pseudocorinthians/ apulocorinthians. (names vary)
What does not vary is the way they hold their lance/xyston.
I have no doubt that Eastern/Steppe troops would use the xyston with both hands, but the Greek way was what you see, depicted in those coins. Seeing that they are late in the Hellenistic age (the tentative end for that age is 146 BCE), what they are depicted as doing was probably a military axiom, aka use the left hand to guide the horse, hold the xyston with the right at its balance point.

Steppe horsemen's way of riding involved "hugging" the horse with their leggs, their feet pointing down balerina style, and their legs becoming deformed as time passed by (by that stance of horse riding). Even to this day the descendants of the Alans at Ossetia tip toe dance, a potential excercise to strengthen their feet in order to become better horsemen. They would learn early on to ride without hands so as to be able to shoot their arrows (being predominantly Horse Archers). Later on when the lance/xyston was used to kill off enemy Horse archers probably, they would deffinitely use both hands for it, like they would do were they using both hands as Horse Archers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hllx_hcHUuQ
They effectively controlled the horse with their feet, therefore they could spare both hands for the xyston. Different depictions of ancient riders are an illustration of that difference, I think. Steppe horsemen or those taught by them would ride the Steppen way, everyone else would ride the Greek/Roman way or rather European way, a way that would necessitate at least one hand to steer the horse.

Greek style of handing the horse was with the hands and the feet were secondary. This evolved to the style all Europeans use today, probably everyone. stirrups eliminated the need to ride in the old fashion. Ironically, it is very probable that Sarmatians developped the stirrup, precisely to be able to ride like everyone else, sitting on the horse, rather than hugging it with their feet, while on the same time having effective control of the horse, to be able to shoot arrows while riding.
Kostas Papadopoulos
History fans like myself should keep these wise words in mind
When in doubt about sources, trustworthiness or what the writer of what you read about is really after, I \'d advise Ktesias test after that Münchhausen of ancient Greece.
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Messages In This Thread
Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Johnny Shumate - 10-17-2009, 03:43 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Archelaos - 10-17-2009, 04:28 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Johnny Shumate - 10-17-2009, 04:32 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Johnny Shumate - 10-17-2009, 06:15 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 07:53 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 08:13 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 08:44 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 09:00 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 09:21 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 09:26 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 10:21 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 11:06 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 11:17 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 10-17-2009, 11:30 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 10-17-2009, 11:46 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 10-19-2009, 12:23 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by PMBardunias - 10-19-2009, 02:39 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Fco Matias Bueno - 12-13-2009, 01:39 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-13-2009, 04:42 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-13-2009, 07:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-13-2009, 08:14 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-13-2009, 09:17 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 12:04 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-14-2009, 12:11 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 01:46 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-14-2009, 02:43 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-14-2009, 04:05 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 05:49 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Ghostmojo - 12-14-2009, 08:44 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 10:05 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-14-2009, 11:23 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Ghostmojo - 12-14-2009, 11:33 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-14-2009, 11:53 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 02:17 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-15-2009, 03:08 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 03:43 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 03:54 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-15-2009, 04:17 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-15-2009, 05:56 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 06:12 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-15-2009, 06:38 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-15-2009, 06:45 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-15-2009, 06:53 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-15-2009, 10:58 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-16-2009, 06:16 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-16-2009, 06:36 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-16-2009, 06:54 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-16-2009, 01:49 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-16-2009, 04:00 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-16-2009, 04:53 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-16-2009, 11:23 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 12:37 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 01:19 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 02:15 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 03:12 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 05:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 06:33 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-17-2009, 09:05 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-17-2009, 06:41 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-18-2009, 01:24 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-18-2009, 02:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-18-2009, 05:34 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-18-2009, 07:17 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-18-2009, 06:22 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-18-2009, 07:01 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-18-2009, 10:57 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-19-2009, 08:01 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-19-2009, 08:46 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-19-2009, 11:19 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-19-2009, 11:32 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-21-2009, 02:49 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-21-2009, 04:51 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-21-2009, 07:31 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-21-2009, 09:55 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by D B Campbell - 12-21-2009, 01:34 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by PMBardunias - 12-21-2009, 07:43 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-21-2009, 10:35 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 12:42 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-22-2009, 01:23 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 01:49 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 02:32 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 07:44 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 08:11 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 09:59 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 11:04 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 12:31 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 12:52 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-22-2009, 01:21 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-22-2009, 10:15 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-23-2009, 10:33 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-24-2009, 08:14 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-28-2009, 07:12 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-28-2009, 02:19 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-28-2009, 04:52 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-28-2009, 07:43 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-29-2009, 08:34 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 12-29-2009, 08:44 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paullus Scipio - 12-29-2009, 08:52 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by MeinPanzer - 12-29-2009, 07:47 PM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by Paralus - 12-31-2009, 07:31 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 01-02-2010, 11:07 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by keravnos - 01-23-2010, 07:44 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by John Conyard - 01-23-2010, 10:03 AM
Re: Macedonian Soldier Stele - by keravnos - 01-23-2010, 11:54 AM

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