11-02-2009, 11:52 AM
Well, i post on Friday, checking occaisionally with no results until i stop checking. Leave for the weekend....and the thread *explodes* with information 
Thank you, everyone. Everything mentioned has been very helpful as well as interesting. And best of all it bears out pretty much what i thought.
This has to do with precision of language, and ongoing translation into other languages farther from the source language. Here are some thoughts.
Say you are an explorer, but you can't get funding here in the USA. So, become a Professor abroad in Germany. Now you finally get funding for an expedition to New Guinea or some other remote place for something related to your field of research, say Shamanistic Practices of Indiginous Cultures.
Your paper when published will in all likelyhood be published in Germany and in that language.
But your original field notes will probably be in your own language, ie. American English.
So Posidonius almost certainly took his notes and first wrote his account of Celtic Gaul in Greek first, and later if he undertook the task, in Latin for that audience. It could just as likely been translated at some remove to his life, which ended around 51 BCE.
Everything contributed here answers/mirrors most of the speculation regarding this specific type of javelin. I have noticed in alot of reading of commentary on this specific passage that those more given to a conservative view ( favoring a description that matches best to the physical archaeology of items found at La Tene ) usually seem to favor the Latin Translation; a wording that seems to indicate a sort of undulating, or flame-shaped blade.
However, i have often wondered at the word "spiral" here. It is a very specific word, about the only word that might be more specific might be "helix" or "helical".
And this is what seems to be indicated by the Greek wording. First person observation ( by Posidonius ) in the birth language of the observer might take precedence over translation into another language as possibly being more accurate, more precise in description. This assuming of course that said observer is intelligent and literate with a facility in their birth language.
I designed, and have had made several helical or spiral pointed javelins with barbs. Matt Amt and other members of Legio XX have seen these.
There are some interesting reasons for twisting a javelin point. If you stab something with a blade ( this does not account for movement of the target or changing direction of the weapon ) the wound will be a cross section of the blade up to the point of penetration, basically a simple slit. If you twist the same blade ( and this would probably only be of use in a missle weapon ) the edges now cut opposing arcs, and if the spin is great enough these arcs meet and what results is a hole. The gaps, breaks or barbs just make it worse.
Also, to be considered is the spin of the javelin in flight along its long axis. Think of a javelin as a long, thin football. You want the javelin to spin for the same reasons as a well-thrown pass. I am right-handed, so from my point of view, the javelin spins clockwise as it leaves my hand and travels down range. I designed these points with a 180 degree right-hand twist. if the direction of twist and direction of spin are the same you have...a drill bit. Something that will have a tendency to core its way into, or through, a target.
I offer the following quote for comparison to the Posidonius quote:
"The Gae Bolga had to be made ready for use on a stream; it was cast fom the fork of the toes. It made a single wound, like a javelin but it had thirty barbs when one tried to remove it. Only by cutting away the flesh could it be removed from that mans body."
from the Book of Leinster version of the Tain Bo Cualgne ( Cattle Raid of Cooley )
Can't say anything about trying to hurl a javelin with the foot ( though i have tried enough to thoroughly embarass my self
), with some of the things trained martial artists do i wouldn't want to discount it out of hand. But the description of the wound whereas it is not a one-for-one match, does sort of invoke comparison with the description from Posidonius.
"Gae Bolga" is Irish Gaelic for "gapped ( or notched ) spear"
Further commentary is welcome, but Thank You All Very Much for answering my initial question
Thank you, everyone. Everything mentioned has been very helpful as well as interesting. And best of all it bears out pretty much what i thought.
This has to do with precision of language, and ongoing translation into other languages farther from the source language. Here are some thoughts.
Say you are an explorer, but you can't get funding here in the USA. So, become a Professor abroad in Germany. Now you finally get funding for an expedition to New Guinea or some other remote place for something related to your field of research, say Shamanistic Practices of Indiginous Cultures.
Your paper when published will in all likelyhood be published in Germany and in that language.
But your original field notes will probably be in your own language, ie. American English.
So Posidonius almost certainly took his notes and first wrote his account of Celtic Gaul in Greek first, and later if he undertook the task, in Latin for that audience. It could just as likely been translated at some remove to his life, which ended around 51 BCE.
Everything contributed here answers/mirrors most of the speculation regarding this specific type of javelin. I have noticed in alot of reading of commentary on this specific passage that those more given to a conservative view ( favoring a description that matches best to the physical archaeology of items found at La Tene ) usually seem to favor the Latin Translation; a wording that seems to indicate a sort of undulating, or flame-shaped blade.
However, i have often wondered at the word "spiral" here. It is a very specific word, about the only word that might be more specific might be "helix" or "helical".
And this is what seems to be indicated by the Greek wording. First person observation ( by Posidonius ) in the birth language of the observer might take precedence over translation into another language as possibly being more accurate, more precise in description. This assuming of course that said observer is intelligent and literate with a facility in their birth language.
I designed, and have had made several helical or spiral pointed javelins with barbs. Matt Amt and other members of Legio XX have seen these.
There are some interesting reasons for twisting a javelin point. If you stab something with a blade ( this does not account for movement of the target or changing direction of the weapon ) the wound will be a cross section of the blade up to the point of penetration, basically a simple slit. If you twist the same blade ( and this would probably only be of use in a missle weapon ) the edges now cut opposing arcs, and if the spin is great enough these arcs meet and what results is a hole. The gaps, breaks or barbs just make it worse.
Also, to be considered is the spin of the javelin in flight along its long axis. Think of a javelin as a long, thin football. You want the javelin to spin for the same reasons as a well-thrown pass. I am right-handed, so from my point of view, the javelin spins clockwise as it leaves my hand and travels down range. I designed these points with a 180 degree right-hand twist. if the direction of twist and direction of spin are the same you have...a drill bit. Something that will have a tendency to core its way into, or through, a target.
I offer the following quote for comparison to the Posidonius quote:
"The Gae Bolga had to be made ready for use on a stream; it was cast fom the fork of the toes. It made a single wound, like a javelin but it had thirty barbs when one tried to remove it. Only by cutting away the flesh could it be removed from that mans body."
from the Book of Leinster version of the Tain Bo Cualgne ( Cattle Raid of Cooley )
Can't say anything about trying to hurl a javelin with the foot ( though i have tried enough to thoroughly embarass my self
), with some of the things trained martial artists do i wouldn't want to discount it out of hand. But the description of the wound whereas it is not a one-for-one match, does sort of invoke comparison with the description from Posidonius."Gae Bolga" is Irish Gaelic for "gapped ( or notched ) spear"
Further commentary is welcome, but Thank You All Very Much for answering my initial question
