Hippeis, not Hippies

[Ghostmojo]

So unless I have missed something, the evidence is quite meager. We have a reference from Thucydides that they fought around the king at Mantinea ... Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War, Book 5.72, at Mantinea, 418 B.C., ... We have their presence near the king at Leuktra: ... the Hippeis could simply be what the picked men of other poleis were: an elite unit. The best men they had, and in the Spartan context they would have had the added bonus of being an all spartiate unit, unmixed with perioic or hypomeionic elements. They might be expected to fight where the need for men the best men was percieved to be and often the king might fight there as well since it was a place of honor ...

The reality is that we arrive back where we started with this thread Paul because you are quite right - the evidence is thin, occasionally contradictory, and always second hand. However, the fun of these things is we can fall back on deductive reasoning as James suggested. I stand by all my comments which are based upon deduction and I hope educated speculation. As I say the de facto term is appropriate. For all the reasons I have given about the importance of the king as military, political, religious and ceremonial leader - plus his tendency to lead from the most dangerous position imaginable - it is not unreasonable, nor improbable, to deduce he was surrounded by a body guard - and that the Hippeis served that purpose. Sparta's peculiar constitution, plus her lack of written records, plus her natural secrecy about such things all tends to obfuscate matters as we know only too well. However, when Leonidas I set off for Thermopylai - the 300 hundred accompanied him performing what must be seen as a protective role (especially in light of the Delphic prophecy). We can argue/discuss til the cows come home whether the Thermopylai contingent were the actual Hippeis/part hippeis/other body etc., but in my opinion they were - due to L1 replacing men who had no sons with those that did. Otherwise he might well have said "I'm not taking the Hippeis this time" (knowing this was likely to be a suicide mission) but selecting another unit instead - and why be so prescriptive about the 300 figure?

You are entirely right they were an elite unit. Other states had them so why not Sparta? However, certain things about the city state of Sparta were different. In effect all the Spartiatai were elite (by any reasonable definition of the term), and along with the Krypteia (however that manifested itself) the Hippeis (who may well have conducted Krypteia operations) must be considered super elite - being superior to the rest of the citizen manpower (who in turn were far superior to the average soldier of other Greek armies).

... Thomas Figueira postulated that the three Hippagretae( Xen Constit'n IV.3) who each chose 100 Hippeis (or more probably the replacements for those graduating as 'good men') each chose for the three Doric Phyles/tribes of Hylleis, Dimnanes and Pamphylioi, and that since the Kings were 'Hylleis', this 100 within the 'Hippeis' provided the King's bodyguard, which seems an attractive idea until we recall that 'Hippeis' and 'Guard' never overlap in our sources, but references (albeit very few) refer to one or the other (i.e. no references to "..the Hylleis of the Hippeis.." or "..the Guard from the Hippeis...") ...

Which (other) Paul is what I had been suggesting. This 100 unit may well have been an alternating body of each Dorian subtribe. 100 Hylleis - 100 Dymanes - 100 Pamphyloi - in succession/rotation - coming together as the full unit when required. As I never tire of stating - the tripartite multiples of 3 are prevalent in Dorian and particularly Spartan thinking. I sometimes wonder why they never had three kings!

The fact that the 300 never went abroad (by that I take it you mean outside of mainland Hellas) is hardly surprising since the regular Spartan army hardly ever did either. The core principle of the army was to protect and preserve the Spartan way of life and as such was preferred to remain in Lakedaimon. The Spartans were notoriously loathe to send its troops abroad and when it did more often than not it amounted to a general, king, regent with a handful of staff supported by mercenaries, perioikoi, neodamodeis etc. Whether in Krete, Asia Minor, Italy, Sicily or wherever - this principle usually held. Trying to get them north of the Isthmus of Korinth was difficult enough!!! Later this principle was extended to the condotteries which included Agesilaos II (A2) and of course Xanthippos (and yes I would be interested in your latest info on such PMB and will PM you - cheers ). I recognise and accept the possible incongruity of sending a king abroad without his 'bodyguard' (i.e A2), however, I would postulate that once Sparta (unwisely) embarked upon empire-building-running on a larger stage - all previous bets were off.

Although well off the subject, I agree with PMB's points about Xanthippos. Even if he had been a Mothax it would hardly have mattered. It didn't stop Lysander's steady rise to prominence who was alledgedly of mixed background. Finally, we can agree to disagree about whether the Hippeis were a Royal Guard or not. We can rely entirely upon the ancient sources' limited references or apply some further analysis. However, I would ask what the Hippeis were for specifically - in a citizen army that (at its peak) was largely populated by elite troops anyway? Until the time of Pelopidas and the Theban Sacred band, there was probably no organised unit that could take on a regular Spartan one (fighting in similar manner as opposed to freak events like Sphakteria or Lekhaion). Even the Argive 1000 were disinclined to take a stand at 1st Mantinea and rather ingloriously did a runner with Agis II in hot pursuit. Interestingly, and as a sideline, the news of approaching battle between the Spartan led army of Agis II and the Argive/Athenian force led to the other king, Pleistoanax embarking from Sparta with a reinforcing army. Although he turned back at Tegea - it is interesting to wonder what would have happened had be arrived at Mantinea in time to join Agis. Presumably the former would have handed over comand to the latter? Or perhaps given Agis' record the opposite? In any event they would have wanted to avoid a repetition of Kleomenes I and Damaratos - so presumably the Ephoral presence would have made itself known.