They were as good as any other....myth!

[Polinik]

There is NO superior martial art!

I would add that there is NO superior military unit or ideal warrior type or fighting skill for that reason.

I would agree on this as well.
Though I disagree that there is no correlation between ancient and modern...Training away from home or isolated for enough time,brutal punishing of ALL mistakes,deleting all individuality,demanding perfection,obeying orders,mental toughening...That roughly sounds like Agoge to me,and sure is same as any training in any respectable military/police unit today.We learned it from them I would say.Agree?

And for the rest I read here:
I will have to defend the point of my dear brother here...No matter how much attention you give to the phalanx,which was a lot of time undoubtedly, in your two decade organized and strict training you had to go trough training in wrestling,boxing,pankration...trough hoplomachia training,physical and mental toughening or even torture etc.
And no matter how little attention it was given to hoplomachia compared to phalanx training (debatable how little exactly?) it is still considerably more and more serious than most of other Greeks spent (Of course there were good carefully trained warriors throughout Greece,but in what number?).

That is why I will defend the point that Spartan full citizen could be matched in hoplomachia by some well enough trained men,and probably beaten by let's say half of them(WELL TRAINED)...and it would be an even fight.

But certainly the point that majority of average weekend soldiers could challenge Spartan(or any other well trained Greek) when not in phalanx is ridiculous.They were whipped more times than they made love to their women,they fought with teeth remember?They were fanatics.Read Tyrtaios!!
And someone says they are not better than an armed shoemaker?Come on....

If that was true we should ask ourselves: What the **** did they do for twenty years. Why such fearsome discipline and training? It sure does not take more than two decades,and such a brutal system to master just the phalanx movement(complicated but not that complicated,it's one of the simplest way of warfare).

They had to be as much as possible complete soldiers,as well as a doctor has to be complete,they don't go and practice brain surgery in week one of their school. It comes when you are READY TO DO THAT RIGHT,and only then you practice that until you can do it blindfolded.Not the other way around. Same is with hoplites same is with every single thing in our world,ancient or modern. You all seem to have skipped probably around 50% of Agoge here.

And try not to make arguments like "they were not Holywood superheros" because I don't see anyone here said that! Above average or well trained is just what it says, no one said it is invincible or superhero or Chuck Norris.

To conclude -no one is trying to make gods out of Spartans,just to make point what two decades of training MUST do to a man. It will not make a terminator, but it sure will not make a soldier "beatable by any armed shoemaker".

Happy New Year to everybody,

All best