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New hoplite book
#14
Quote:We favor the left over right (////) based on the "Gigantomachy" of Delfi.

There are some reasons to think of left over right, but please don't base it on images like that one or the Chigi. In most of these cases it can be shown that they are advancing with the aspis edge on, not in front of them. They may well have done this to limit the drift we discussed above until their final advance or missile fire required it. I can't rule out even fighting in this way, edge on is how renaissance fencers with a long stabbing sword and a shield not very much smaller than an aspis strapped to their forearm fenced. Remember how long the dory is, they had to stand some 5' apart to use it effectively, you can't both shield bash and dory fence unless you have room to keep moving up and back, which they didn't, but why would you anyway? So it could be that only in the final move to close range, when men went shield to shield that the aspis was across the chest. I don't necessarily believe that, but I can't say its "wrong" or wrong for all the centuries of hoplite combat.

My guess is that hoplites fought at dory range, some 5' from their foes, as part of a wall of overlapping aspides (of whichever way). This greatly limited individual mobility and fighting ability, but was made up for by sheer density. Some have found this limitation on mobility too much and assumed that hoplites needed more individual space, but the scale of these clashes is not easy to replicate. Loose packed fighters, like those that attacked in small groups at Plataea will have a problem attacking this shield wall because they will each face multiple dorys from the front rank and should they get past, dorys from the second ranker protecting the man in front (I doubt rank three stabbed over top).


Quote:But are there any things that you could suggest we can check on the issue the next time we meet for training?

There are many, some I think are too dangerous to play with without serious precautions. Human testing is a problem, there are specific regulations I would have to follow even in something so informal or I could get into trouble if I tell you to do something and someone gets hurt. For example trying to form a real othismos can be very dangerous and if not carefully monitored can cause injury or death. One thing you could try real easily that will show you why I think left over right is a problem in othismos is to press your aspis against something solid like a post, then let the man to your right place his rim between your chest and aspis as though pressed in othismos that way. Now have him move forward and back just a bit, slowly. I have done this, and you will find that the rim of his aspis cuts into your body as he moves forward and into your arm as he moves back. In the kind of jostling that would occur during othismos, this would be bad if not lethal. Again, I should note that I could be wrong and there could be no pushing in mass, but if there was, there are very specific ways to both maximize the pushing force of the group and protect yourself from injury.

You should try is: fighting, shield to shield with your foe with very limited space. Some authors have claimed that this cannot be done, but it can with a sword in the upraised right arm and the shield across your chest. I know no one but myself who has tried this- we tied ourselves chest to chest as though pressed tight. It is vicious, but I found that if you don't get killed quick, it was not too hard to bind up your opponent's weapon. Then you spend a lot of time sort of arm wrestling with the locked weapons. It may explain why battles could be so long. You will find yourself helmet crest to helmet crest as Tyrtaios describes, just to limit his cuts. Incidentally a pilos that wards blows from above and a short Laconian sword would be great for this. How this works with more men and perhaps dorys from rear rankers stabbing blind into the mass I don't know.

Something that helps make the aspis fit against the chest more comfortably is to drop the arm to a 45 degree angle. This position is seen on many early bronze statuettes. It is easier on the arm and makes the width of the shield fit better without choking you with the rim. And it keeps your forearm out of your diaphragm.

For anyone willing to try testing, contact me by email and we can discuss what would be useful to test and safe.
Paul M. Bardunias
MODERATOR: [url:2dqwu8yc]http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=4100[/url]
A Spartan, being asked a question, answered "No." And when the questioner said, "You lie," the Spartan said, "You see, then, that it is stupid of you to ask questions to which you already know the answer!"
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Messages In This Thread
New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-26-2010, 05:27 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Jasper Oorthuys - 04-26-2010, 06:25 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-27-2010, 02:07 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Demetrios - 04-27-2010, 03:07 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-27-2010, 03:43 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Demetrios - 04-28-2010, 09:45 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-28-2010, 12:53 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Giannis K. Hoplite - 04-28-2010, 01:01 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Demetrios - 04-28-2010, 02:29 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-28-2010, 06:17 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by ouragos - 04-28-2010, 07:50 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-28-2010, 08:38 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 04-28-2010, 08:56 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-29-2010, 03:23 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Macedon - 04-29-2010, 02:08 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-30-2010, 01:51 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 04-30-2010, 01:33 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-30-2010, 04:39 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 04-30-2010, 10:43 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 04-30-2010, 11:21 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 04-30-2010, 11:37 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-01-2010, 01:47 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-01-2010, 03:05 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-02-2010, 01:14 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Macedon - 05-02-2010, 06:14 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-03-2010, 12:44 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-03-2010, 09:47 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-03-2010, 10:48 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-04-2010, 02:00 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-04-2010, 05:36 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-04-2010, 10:27 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-04-2010, 04:26 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-04-2010, 05:00 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-05-2010, 10:50 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-05-2010, 06:17 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-06-2010, 12:02 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-06-2010, 06:24 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-06-2010, 07:21 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-06-2010, 11:11 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-07-2010, 01:17 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-07-2010, 06:59 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-07-2010, 08:34 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-07-2010, 10:42 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-07-2010, 11:53 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-08-2010, 12:08 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-08-2010, 01:45 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-08-2010, 02:39 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-08-2010, 04:19 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-08-2010, 05:51 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-09-2010, 01:32 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-09-2010, 03:14 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-10-2010, 12:17 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-10-2010, 02:14 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-10-2010, 03:27 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-10-2010, 03:42 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-11-2010, 12:51 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by MeinPanzer - 05-15-2010, 04:10 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-16-2010, 03:15 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by MeinPanzer - 05-16-2010, 08:19 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-17-2010, 01:15 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-17-2010, 03:44 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-17-2010, 05:21 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-17-2010, 07:38 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-17-2010, 10:00 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-18-2010, 04:14 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-18-2010, 04:32 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-18-2010, 09:32 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-18-2010, 11:22 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-19-2010, 08:22 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-19-2010, 09:37 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-19-2010, 09:48 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-20-2010, 01:03 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-20-2010, 04:32 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-20-2010, 07:08 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-20-2010, 07:32 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-20-2010, 08:24 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-20-2010, 09:08 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-20-2010, 09:45 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-20-2010, 10:26 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-20-2010, 10:47 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-21-2010, 02:01 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-21-2010, 02:37 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-21-2010, 02:49 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by hoplite14gr - 05-21-2010, 11:52 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Astiryu1 - 05-21-2010, 06:14 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-25-2010, 07:02 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-26-2010, 01:39 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by MeinPanzer - 05-26-2010, 02:14 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-26-2010, 02:26 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-26-2010, 02:48 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-26-2010, 03:41 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-26-2010, 04:58 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-26-2010, 05:14 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-26-2010, 05:32 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-26-2010, 05:59 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-26-2010, 03:46 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-26-2010, 06:12 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-26-2010, 08:11 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-26-2010, 09:44 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-27-2010, 02:52 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-27-2010, 04:19 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Old Husker - 05-27-2010, 04:30 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-27-2010, 05:15 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-27-2010, 10:48 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-29-2010, 10:05 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paullus Scipio - 05-30-2010, 03:14 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-30-2010, 03:39 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-30-2010, 04:32 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paullus Scipio - 05-30-2010, 06:09 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-30-2010, 06:29 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-30-2010, 07:33 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paullus Scipio - 05-30-2010, 11:42 AM
Re: New hoplite book - by Macedon - 05-30-2010, 12:39 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-30-2010, 02:40 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paullus Scipio - 05-30-2010, 02:44 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-30-2010, 02:49 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-30-2010, 02:58 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-30-2010, 03:05 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paullus Scipio - 05-30-2010, 03:49 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Macedon - 05-30-2010, 03:53 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Macedon - 05-30-2010, 04:02 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 05-30-2010, 04:56 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by Paralus - 05-30-2010, 09:49 PM
Re: New hoplite book - by PMBardunias - 06-01-2010, 01:45 AM

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