Mykale, a naval battle?

[PMBardunias]

Personally I don't believe 'crowd mechanics' applies to normal 'hoplite' combat on the open battlefield, though it might in an unusual or extreme situation, such as street fighting, or fighting between walls.

This is because you do not understand how crowds generate force and are "othismotic" in your resistance in my attempts educate you! :wink: But...

Charging men, like charging horses, are not suicidal when faced with a solid obstacle, and charging Hoplites will generally have 'pulled up' at spear-thrust distance from the barricade, and an exchange of vicious spear thrusting taken place across it. Before the Hoplites could get close enough to either drag at the 'spara' ( which would involve temporarily abandoning spear), or could get close enough to hack through it with swords, or try to push it down with their 'aspides', they had to get past the the Persian spears, and maybe too once in close, Persian 'battle-axes/sagaris'. Not to mention arrows shot from point-blank range. The defenders had to be driven back, and that is what took the time Herodotus refers to.("First there was a struggle at the barricade of shields..." "so long as their as their line of spara remained intact, successfully repelled all attacks..." )

This is exactly correct, and, incidentally, what my othismos model predicts. Because there is no running charge into othismos, there is an extended period of spear-fencing. This then transitions into othismos as front rankers come shield to shield and men crowd forward. It is important to note, for those who find it impossible that hoplites could not get past their enemy's array of spears that they obviously can. This battle is in fact an excellent example of such a progression. In Fred's defense, surely the Persian front rank did not just stand there while the hoplites pushed their shields over, but braced them from behind with their bodies.

Also, if that depiction above is accurate and the shield wall was set up at something like a 35-45 degree angle from vertical, this aids in stopping missiles, then pushing against it would be no easy task for a hoplite- more like falling onto it.