10-06-2010, 09:51 AM
Cacaivs,
Thank you for your detailed explanation of your methods and rationale for commands. I think it is great when a reenactment unit makes an extra effort to speak the language of the soldiers they are portraying; too many reenactment groups and individuals place too little emphasis on this aspect of their total impressions.
I have no doubt that your methods work well within your unit — your milites know what you mean, when you say it. Also, you have many options. A centurio obviously gave orders, directives, and instructions all day long, not just during the small percentage of time spent on the drill field. Drill commands can be put in a drill manual, but no manual of phrases could cover all possibilities for giving orders off the field.
I have some questions, though, about how things work when your group gets together with others at large gatherings. I was under the impression that in Europe many units use different sets of commands, and that not all of them do drill the same way, even though there are many elements in common. I've seen the command lists for the Ermine Street Guard, Legio X Gemina, and the one in Marcus Junkelmann's Legionen des Augustus, which I have heard some units use. Now, my information may be old, and perhaps things have changed on the other side of the Atlantic, but there may always be new research and experimentation which can change the status quo. For example, had you and your unit participated in the recent maneuvers by the 3 combined Italian groups (as shown in the video posted by Velite at the start of the thread) would everyone had been able to figure out what movements were meant by the Latin verbs and commands used? Or would it have helped to have known ahead of time what verbs were they were going to use for each evolution?
Or suppose you were invited to be the guest centurion and conduct drill at a gathering of different Roman units in Western Europe, and you neither studied what words they use, nor they yours, and you did as you mentioned:
Based on the varied uses of "laxate" that I have seen, some milites might simply adjust their interval slightly to the proper distance, others would double their intervals from close to open order, and others would stand at ease! Historians aren't in agreement as to exactly what Caesar meant in BG II 25 when he commanded "manipulos laxare," why should reenactors? (Though I'm pretty sure he didn't mean "relax".)
If the European reenactors have found a way to avoid this problem, many of us over here would be interested in how that was accomplished.
I wouldn't teach anyone either that "depone" or "deponite" means "wheel," because it doesn't. Depone/deponite in the LM manual means "set," "place," or "deploy." (A 1st Cent BC example of use from De Lingua Latina by Varro: "Pilani triarii quoque dicti, quod in acie tertio ordine extremi subsidio deponebantur.") I'm sure your guys could learn that this Latin verb (like most) can have a variety of uses in different contexts, that when in a formation, the front could be ordered to deponite or set on a flank, and in camp a gladius could commanded to be set in a tent using the same verb. I'm not saying that you need to do this, i just don't see why you could not teach them it if you wanted to.
I was also taught this was one sense or use of "ad". But I was also taught that "ad" with a noun in the accusative case becomes an adverbial phrase. In that event the meaning can be "towards", "into", or "for the purpose of."
The best example I know of the use of "ad" + accusative case in a probable field command is in Vegetius III 14:
"Prima autem et secunda acies, cum ad spathas et ad pila, ut dicitur, uentum fuerit, totum sustinet bellum." (The first and second lines bear the brunt of the battle when it comes to what is called "to broadswords and javelins." [Milner translation]) I don't think ad spathas et ad pila was an order to run to the nearest supply of weapons, but rather a shorthand command to go to the position or formation for the purpose of fighting at close quarters with swords and pila.
CacaIvs, I hope I have explained my positions clearly without being too long winded. I look forward to discussing further aspects of drill and maneuvers, and getting tips on ways to use Latin in camp settings.
Thank you for your detailed explanation of your methods and rationale for commands. I think it is great when a reenactment unit makes an extra effort to speak the language of the soldiers they are portraying; too many reenactment groups and individuals place too little emphasis on this aspect of their total impressions.
I have no doubt that your methods work well within your unit — your milites know what you mean, when you say it. Also, you have many options. A centurio obviously gave orders, directives, and instructions all day long, not just during the small percentage of time spent on the drill field. Drill commands can be put in a drill manual, but no manual of phrases could cover all possibilities for giving orders off the field.
I have some questions, though, about how things work when your group gets together with others at large gatherings. I was under the impression that in Europe many units use different sets of commands, and that not all of them do drill the same way, even though there are many elements in common. I've seen the command lists for the Ermine Street Guard, Legio X Gemina, and the one in Marcus Junkelmann's Legionen des Augustus, which I have heard some units use. Now, my information may be old, and perhaps things have changed on the other side of the Atlantic, but there may always be new research and experimentation which can change the status quo. For example, had you and your unit participated in the recent maneuvers by the 3 combined Italian groups (as shown in the video posted by Velite at the start of the thread) would everyone had been able to figure out what movements were meant by the Latin verbs and commands used? Or would it have helped to have known ahead of time what verbs were they were going to use for each evolution?
Or suppose you were invited to be the guest centurion and conduct drill at a gathering of different Roman units in Western Europe, and you neither studied what words they use, nor they yours, and you did as you mentioned:
Quote:When I want them to make spaces between ranks / files .. I shout "in agmina/ordinibus laxate"
Based on the varied uses of "laxate" that I have seen, some milites might simply adjust their interval slightly to the proper distance, others would double their intervals from close to open order, and others would stand at ease! Historians aren't in agreement as to exactly what Caesar meant in BG II 25 when he commanded "manipulos laxare," why should reenactors? (Though I'm pretty sure he didn't mean "relax".)
If the European reenactors have found a way to avoid this problem, many of us over here would be interested in how that was accomplished.
Quote:I cant teach them that "Deponite" means "turn as a wheel" .. because they all know this word. And in the camp I say many times .. "please deponite your gladii there" (of course in proper latin)
I wouldn't teach anyone either that "depone" or "deponite" means "wheel," because it doesn't. Depone/deponite in the LM manual means "set," "place," or "deploy." (A 1st Cent BC example of use from De Lingua Latina by Varro: "Pilani triarii quoque dicti, quod in acie tertio ordine extremi subsidio deponebantur.") I'm sure your guys could learn that this Latin verb (like most) can have a variety of uses in different contexts, that when in a formation, the front could be ordered to deponite or set on a flank, and in camp a gladius could commanded to be set in a tent using the same verb. I'm not saying that you need to do this, i just don't see why you could not teach them it if you wanted to.
Quote:p.s. by the way in my opinion "ad testudinem" its not correct form. Are you sure that romans will say in this way ?
I was always teached that "Ad" means direction
I was also taught this was one sense or use of "ad". But I was also taught that "ad" with a noun in the accusative case becomes an adverbial phrase. In that event the meaning can be "towards", "into", or "for the purpose of."
Quote:In this case "ad testudinem" means exactly ... go to the nearest ready made testudo and stay nearbyGiven the above, it would seem that "ad testudinem" means (form) into a testudo, or (form) testudo-wise. The phrase being adverbial, the imperative verb is implied.
The best example I know of the use of "ad" + accusative case in a probable field command is in Vegetius III 14:
"Prima autem et secunda acies, cum ad spathas et ad pila, ut dicitur, uentum fuerit, totum sustinet bellum." (The first and second lines bear the brunt of the battle when it comes to what is called "to broadswords and javelins." [Milner translation]) I don't think ad spathas et ad pila was an order to run to the nearest supply of weapons, but rather a shorthand command to go to the position or formation for the purpose of fighting at close quarters with swords and pila.
CacaIvs, I hope I have explained my positions clearly without being too long winded. I look forward to discussing further aspects of drill and maneuvers, and getting tips on ways to use Latin in camp settings.
