07-18-2012, 04:07 AM
Macedon I can reply to your recent comment tomorrow but I worked this up when you posted.
When analyzing the information we have on Herodot, his account comes from later sources such as Nepos, Pausanias, and Suda so an analysis of them would be necessary here. I forgot to mention in our logistical calculations that it is totally possible Persian divisions weren't at full strength due to previous engagements at e.g. seiging the Eretrians. At Thermopylae, Leonidas had his Phocians occupy the pass but they were very soft and the Persians could easily exploit them.
Tracking back a few years to Marathon, Herodotus claimed that the Athenians ran 200 meters to engage the Persian lines, although such a charge with the amount of equipment on the hoplites is hard to envision. Is it really possible for soldiers carrying 50lbs of weight to cross 1 mile at a speed of 4.5m/h and be in a condition to fight?
“In Peter Krentz's reconstruction, the reason why the Athenians run was to deny the Persians the opportunity to properly deploy their cavalry, which if intercepted them in the middle of the plain would turn them into sitting ducks for the archers. If the Persian cavalry camped in the valley of Trikorinthos near the lake, as Hammond and Leake have suggested, it would have taken at least an hour for them to cross the narrow road between Mt Stavrokoraki and the Makaria spring (as an indication in single file with only 5 seconds per horse to pass the spring, a cavalry force of just 600 would have taken 50 minutes to ride through the chokepoint). Miltiades could have easily observed how much time it took for the Persians to array themselves in battle order in the several days of lull before the battle.
As for the Persian archery, the Athenians could have halted just outside range of Persian bowshot (maximum 200m) to catch their breath and then charge as fast as they could to minimise their exposure. Even in Herodotus' acount the order of the Athenian phalanx seems to have evaporated by the time they crashed on the Persians: they arrived all together (athrooi), not necessarily in orderly fashion.”
-Timeleon of Korinthos at TWC
Herodotus gives us deployment of the armies here in book 6.111-113
“111. And when it came round to him, then the Athenians were drawn up for battle in the order which here follows:-- On the right wing the polemarch Callimachos was leader (for the custom of the Athenians then was this, that the polemarch should have the right wing); and he leading, next after him came the tribes in order as they were numbered one after another, and last were drawn up the Plataians occupying the left wing: for ever since this battle, when the Athenians offer sacrifices in the solemn assemblies which are made at the four-yearly festivals, the herald of the Athenians prays thus, "that blessings may come to the Athenians and to the Plataians both." On this occasion however, when the Athenians were being drawn up at Marathon something of this kind was done:--their army being made equal in length of front to that of the Medes, came to drawn up in the middle with a depth of but few ranks, and here their army was weakest, while each wing was strengthened with numbers.
112. And when they had been arranged in their places and the sacrifices proved favourable, then the Athenians were let go, and they set forth at a run to attack the Barbarians. Now the space between the armies was not less than eight furlongs: and the Persians seeing them advancing to the attack at a run, made preparations to receive them; and in their minds they charged the Athenians with madness which must be fatal, seeing that they were few and yet were pressing forwards at a run, having neither cavalry nor archers. Such was the thought of the Barbarians; but the Athenians when all in a body they had joined in combat with the Barbarians, fought in a memorable fashion: for they were the first of all the Hellenes about whom we know who went to attack the enemy at a run, and they were the first also who endured to face the Median garments and the men who wore them, whereas up to this time the very name of the Medes was to the Hellenes a terror to hear.
113. Now while they fought in Marathon, much time passed by; and in the centre of the army, where the Persians themselves and the Sacans were drawn up, the Barbarians were winning, --here, I say, the Barbarians had broken the ranks of their opponents and were pursuing them inland, but on both wings the Athenians and the Plataians severally were winning the victory; and being victorious they left that part of the Barbarians which had been routed to fly without molestation, and bringing together the two wings they fought with those who had broken their centre, and the Athenians were victorious. So they followed after the Persians as they fled, slaughtering them, until they came to the sea; and then they called for fire and began to take hold of the ships.”
Now, the most probable deployment of the center was 4 deep while the wings were 8 deep, according to multiple authors. Athenians and Plataeans together most likely numbered 10,000 as Nepos claims. Constructing the Persian army size is rather difficult, If I remember correctly Herodotus implies that Persian archers were very effective so they were at the most about 200 meters away from the phalanx due to their range, and the question of cavalry is also problematic. Duncan Head gives a plausible account that I could quote later. This thread is related: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=168948
When analyzing the information we have on Herodot, his account comes from later sources such as Nepos, Pausanias, and Suda so an analysis of them would be necessary here. I forgot to mention in our logistical calculations that it is totally possible Persian divisions weren't at full strength due to previous engagements at e.g. seiging the Eretrians. At Thermopylae, Leonidas had his Phocians occupy the pass but they were very soft and the Persians could easily exploit them.
Tracking back a few years to Marathon, Herodotus claimed that the Athenians ran 200 meters to engage the Persian lines, although such a charge with the amount of equipment on the hoplites is hard to envision. Is it really possible for soldiers carrying 50lbs of weight to cross 1 mile at a speed of 4.5m/h and be in a condition to fight?
“In Peter Krentz's reconstruction, the reason why the Athenians run was to deny the Persians the opportunity to properly deploy their cavalry, which if intercepted them in the middle of the plain would turn them into sitting ducks for the archers. If the Persian cavalry camped in the valley of Trikorinthos near the lake, as Hammond and Leake have suggested, it would have taken at least an hour for them to cross the narrow road between Mt Stavrokoraki and the Makaria spring (as an indication in single file with only 5 seconds per horse to pass the spring, a cavalry force of just 600 would have taken 50 minutes to ride through the chokepoint). Miltiades could have easily observed how much time it took for the Persians to array themselves in battle order in the several days of lull before the battle.
As for the Persian archery, the Athenians could have halted just outside range of Persian bowshot (maximum 200m) to catch their breath and then charge as fast as they could to minimise their exposure. Even in Herodotus' acount the order of the Athenian phalanx seems to have evaporated by the time they crashed on the Persians: they arrived all together (athrooi), not necessarily in orderly fashion.”
-Timeleon of Korinthos at TWC
Herodotus gives us deployment of the armies here in book 6.111-113
“111. And when it came round to him, then the Athenians were drawn up for battle in the order which here follows:-- On the right wing the polemarch Callimachos was leader (for the custom of the Athenians then was this, that the polemarch should have the right wing); and he leading, next after him came the tribes in order as they were numbered one after another, and last were drawn up the Plataians occupying the left wing: for ever since this battle, when the Athenians offer sacrifices in the solemn assemblies which are made at the four-yearly festivals, the herald of the Athenians prays thus, "that blessings may come to the Athenians and to the Plataians both." On this occasion however, when the Athenians were being drawn up at Marathon something of this kind was done:--their army being made equal in length of front to that of the Medes, came to drawn up in the middle with a depth of but few ranks, and here their army was weakest, while each wing was strengthened with numbers.
112. And when they had been arranged in their places and the sacrifices proved favourable, then the Athenians were let go, and they set forth at a run to attack the Barbarians. Now the space between the armies was not less than eight furlongs: and the Persians seeing them advancing to the attack at a run, made preparations to receive them; and in their minds they charged the Athenians with madness which must be fatal, seeing that they were few and yet were pressing forwards at a run, having neither cavalry nor archers. Such was the thought of the Barbarians; but the Athenians when all in a body they had joined in combat with the Barbarians, fought in a memorable fashion: for they were the first of all the Hellenes about whom we know who went to attack the enemy at a run, and they were the first also who endured to face the Median garments and the men who wore them, whereas up to this time the very name of the Medes was to the Hellenes a terror to hear.
113. Now while they fought in Marathon, much time passed by; and in the centre of the army, where the Persians themselves and the Sacans were drawn up, the Barbarians were winning, --here, I say, the Barbarians had broken the ranks of their opponents and were pursuing them inland, but on both wings the Athenians and the Plataians severally were winning the victory; and being victorious they left that part of the Barbarians which had been routed to fly without molestation, and bringing together the two wings they fought with those who had broken their centre, and the Athenians were victorious. So they followed after the Persians as they fled, slaughtering them, until they came to the sea; and then they called for fire and began to take hold of the ships.”
Now, the most probable deployment of the center was 4 deep while the wings were 8 deep, according to multiple authors. Athenians and Plataeans together most likely numbered 10,000 as Nepos claims. Constructing the Persian army size is rather difficult, If I remember correctly Herodotus implies that Persian archers were very effective so they were at the most about 200 meters away from the phalanx due to their range, and the question of cavalry is also problematic. Duncan Head gives a plausible account that I could quote later. This thread is related: http://www.romanarmytalk.com/rat.html?fu...&id=168948
