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Auxilia Palatina
#6
Quote: On the Total War center forums we argued that the Maniple was a term for the 4th century, which was then called a Numerus, both led by a Ducenarius.
On what grounds? Numerus is a generic name for 'unit' and was used from anything like a century to a legionary vexillation of a few thousand men! During the late Roman period it's quite normally used for 'infantry unit'. The maniple was not (as far as I kno) used in new style units from Diocletian onwards. Archaic texts like those of Ammianus Marcellinus may use the word, but it's no longer used in new style regiments. We do not know what a ducenarius was or what he commanded. Although Vegetius makes the ducenarius a commander over a double century, we know nothing of the sort. In fact this may be due to a misunderstanding of Vegetius, who mentioned this rank as a rank between the centurion and the primus pilus of his theoretical ‘Legio Antiqua’. Vegetius was in all probability wrongly equating ‘ducenti’ into ‘ducentenarius’.

So where do we place the ducenarius? An infantry regiment (of 500 to 1000 men) was commanded by a tribunus, who was supported by a praepositus (a post, but also a title for the tribunes and prefects meaning ‘officer-commanding’), a primicerius (the senior NCO or regimental lieutenant-commander, replacing an absent tribunus), a vicarius (the highest non-commissioned officer who could assume command in absence of a tribunus as ‘acting-tribune’) and a campidoctor (formerly the regimental drill but now third behind the tribunus and the primicerius). This leaves almost no room for a ducenarius as established commander of 200 men. We see this reflected in the pay. A tribunus received 7.5 or probably 8 annonae, a primicerius received 5 annonae, a ducenarius received 3.5 annonae, a centenarius received two-and-a-half annonae. The ducenarius receives by far not enough to be interpreted as the commander of a double century. I would say that this would probably make the ducenarius into a centenarius with extra duties.

Quote: I belive Maurice's strategikon lists a unit of 2 centuries (not sure on the name though) and I'm pretty sure the thematic system had one.
The Strategikon does not list units like that. Generic units numbering 200 men do occur but only much later I think.

Quote:Albeit, the Manipular system would be useful in the time considering many units were spread out in vexiliationes, because they would be large enough to operate as one unit, but still could be placed under individual command to do things like flanking operations and ambushes (and even then further divided into contuberniae).
maybe it would, but it was abandoned when the New model army was introduced by Diocletian and Constantine. The cohort seems to be the standard unit, which is logical as we hear that each cohort receives a draco standard.

Quote:The palantines, I do not believe, were irregular barbarian units. It is most likely that these were professional core troops of the Roman Field Armies - as is shown during the campaigns of Julian and Friends in Gaul leading up to the Battle fo Strausbourg.
palatines. Indeed, nobody is claiming that they were irregulars. However, they could fight both as heavy infantry 9as we indeed see them do at Strasbourg) but also as light skirmishers 9when they capture german islands in the Rhine using small boats).
Robert Vermaat
MODERATOR
FECTIO Late Romans
THE CAUSE OF WAR MUST BE JUST
(Maurikios-Strategikon, book VIII.2: Maxim 12)
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Messages In This Thread
Auxilia Palatina - by Nathan Ross - 08-07-2012, 01:51 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by edwin - 08-07-2012, 02:05 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-07-2012, 03:24 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Mark Hygate - 08-07-2012, 02:51 PM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Robert Vermaat - 08-07-2012, 07:28 PM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Robert Vermaat - 08-07-2012, 07:38 PM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Robert Vermaat - 08-07-2012, 07:41 PM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-08-2012, 04:22 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Márk György Kis - 08-08-2012, 05:11 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-08-2012, 04:56 PM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Robert Vermaat - 08-09-2012, 04:33 PM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-10-2012, 04:31 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by markhebb - 08-10-2012, 04:34 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Robert Vermaat - 08-10-2012, 11:18 AM
Re: Auxilia Palatina - by Flavivs Aetivs - 08-10-2012, 06:47 PM

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