05-09-2002, 11:44 AM
Antonius Lucretius wrote:<br>
<b><br>
Read the book first, Tim! But I agree it's a scary book.<br>
</b><br>
Raspail's work looks like a very dated book being lauded by some very scary people for some highly dubious reasons. Most of my comments were directed at the reviews of the book on Amazon, which indicate the kinds of agendas the people who appreciated this book have. Flawed, weird and scary agendas.<br>
<b><br>
And about the "fictional human deluge". I can take you to very numerous places in Europe where you'll see the reality of that "fiction"...<br>
</b><br>
What - vast armadas of people from overpopulated and famine-ravaged countries swarming in numbers too huge to be controlled and completely overwhelming European countries by sheer force of numbers? I don't think so.<br>
<b><br>
The Dutch, of all people are asking themselves that question which you criticize without bringing any answer!<br>
</b><br>
And, as my post would have indicated, Australians are pondering the same questions. In light of the recent lies deliberately peddled by our Government to dupe their way back into power on the back of this issue, many of us are now very wary of 'popularist politicians' who ride to victory on the manipulation of this issue (though we tend not to shoot them, thankfully).<br>
<br>
This is a highly emotive topic, and it taps into some deep fears and (unfortunately) it usually also taps into any latent racism in a community. All over the Western world there seems to be a trend whereby a certain breed of politician has decided that this issue is a good way to get elected. We've seen it in Austria. We've seen it in France. We're seeing it recently in Holland - and in Australia. When countries with long traditions of tolerance and successful and fruitful multiculturalism like Holland and Australia start riding this trend it's time to start worrying.<br>
<br>
I like the way those who support this ‘human deluge’ nonsense are always at pains to stress that they are not racists. Race, they claim, has nothing to do with it. Apparently it’s all about jobs, or ‘preserving our culture’ or ‘the right to determine who settles in our country'. Here in Australia, a few handfuls of Afghan and Iraqi refugees triggered a ludicrous response by our Government – including the dispatch of special forces troops to turn back a ship which had rescued a sinking refugee vessel. Oddly though, the 30,000 people who illegally overstay their holiday visas and become illegal immigrants here each year don’t provoke a similar reaction or make the front pages.<br>
<br>
I’m sure the fact that these people are generally young white backpackers from the UK, Ireland, the US and Canada has <b> nothing</b> to do with it, and any day now our Government is going to show some consistency and dispatch the SAS to round them up and cart them off to primitive detention centres in the desert.<br>
<br>
But I’m not holding my breath.<br>
<br>
As for the answers - unlike the answers the 'popularists' are peddling, they aren't simple, they aren't short-term and they sometimes aren't palatable. If we look at where those refugees are coming from, it <i> isn't</i> from countries which are 'overpopulated' or 'famine ravaged' (so much for the 1970s fantasies of Erlich and Raspail), it's from countries which are ravaged by war and/or oppressed by totalitarian regimes. When several of the countries responsible for these refugees also happen to be places where part of the misery they are fleeing has been caused by Western intervention – eg Afghanistan – or places ruled by former Western-backed dictators – eg Iraq – then perhaps one (difficult) answer is for the West to pay a bit more attention to the long term consequences of some of its more short-sighted foreign policies.<br>
<br>
Or perhaps we need to recognise that there is a flip side to ‘globalisation’. Apparently its all very well for us to export our culture to the rest of the world (and pocket the profits) but when the rest of the world decides it might sample that culture (and some of the benefits of those profits) from its source we start getting alarmed.<br>
<br>
Until recently, multiculturalism has been a highly successful policy here in Australia. We are a nation of immigrants and a model for tolerance and the benefits of accepting differences while checking conflicts and ancient enmities at the door. This has worked here, to the mutual benefit of all, for the last one hundred years. It’s only recently that some – who ASSURE us they aren’t racist – have decided they don’t want it to work any more. And they just happen to want it to stop working with those immigrants who have darker skin, the wrong shaped eyes or follow the wrong religion.<br>
<br>
I can’t see any reason why it can’t continue to work here and why it can’t work elsewhere as well. Apart from the fact that it requires people to be tolerant, open-minded, accepting and unselfish, which seems to be a big ask in the current global climate of insularity, self-interest and fear. And that's a climate ripe to be manipulated by a particular type of cynical (or dangerous) politician.<br>
<br>
Scary stuff indeed.<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
</p><i></i>
<b><br>
Read the book first, Tim! But I agree it's a scary book.<br>
</b><br>
Raspail's work looks like a very dated book being lauded by some very scary people for some highly dubious reasons. Most of my comments were directed at the reviews of the book on Amazon, which indicate the kinds of agendas the people who appreciated this book have. Flawed, weird and scary agendas.<br>
<b><br>
And about the "fictional human deluge". I can take you to very numerous places in Europe where you'll see the reality of that "fiction"...<br>
</b><br>
What - vast armadas of people from overpopulated and famine-ravaged countries swarming in numbers too huge to be controlled and completely overwhelming European countries by sheer force of numbers? I don't think so.<br>
<b><br>
The Dutch, of all people are asking themselves that question which you criticize without bringing any answer!<br>
</b><br>
And, as my post would have indicated, Australians are pondering the same questions. In light of the recent lies deliberately peddled by our Government to dupe their way back into power on the back of this issue, many of us are now very wary of 'popularist politicians' who ride to victory on the manipulation of this issue (though we tend not to shoot them, thankfully).<br>
<br>
This is a highly emotive topic, and it taps into some deep fears and (unfortunately) it usually also taps into any latent racism in a community. All over the Western world there seems to be a trend whereby a certain breed of politician has decided that this issue is a good way to get elected. We've seen it in Austria. We've seen it in France. We're seeing it recently in Holland - and in Australia. When countries with long traditions of tolerance and successful and fruitful multiculturalism like Holland and Australia start riding this trend it's time to start worrying.<br>
<br>
I like the way those who support this ‘human deluge’ nonsense are always at pains to stress that they are not racists. Race, they claim, has nothing to do with it. Apparently it’s all about jobs, or ‘preserving our culture’ or ‘the right to determine who settles in our country'. Here in Australia, a few handfuls of Afghan and Iraqi refugees triggered a ludicrous response by our Government – including the dispatch of special forces troops to turn back a ship which had rescued a sinking refugee vessel. Oddly though, the 30,000 people who illegally overstay their holiday visas and become illegal immigrants here each year don’t provoke a similar reaction or make the front pages.<br>
<br>
I’m sure the fact that these people are generally young white backpackers from the UK, Ireland, the US and Canada has <b> nothing</b> to do with it, and any day now our Government is going to show some consistency and dispatch the SAS to round them up and cart them off to primitive detention centres in the desert.<br>
<br>
But I’m not holding my breath.<br>
<br>
As for the answers - unlike the answers the 'popularists' are peddling, they aren't simple, they aren't short-term and they sometimes aren't palatable. If we look at where those refugees are coming from, it <i> isn't</i> from countries which are 'overpopulated' or 'famine ravaged' (so much for the 1970s fantasies of Erlich and Raspail), it's from countries which are ravaged by war and/or oppressed by totalitarian regimes. When several of the countries responsible for these refugees also happen to be places where part of the misery they are fleeing has been caused by Western intervention – eg Afghanistan – or places ruled by former Western-backed dictators – eg Iraq – then perhaps one (difficult) answer is for the West to pay a bit more attention to the long term consequences of some of its more short-sighted foreign policies.<br>
<br>
Or perhaps we need to recognise that there is a flip side to ‘globalisation’. Apparently its all very well for us to export our culture to the rest of the world (and pocket the profits) but when the rest of the world decides it might sample that culture (and some of the benefits of those profits) from its source we start getting alarmed.<br>
<br>
Until recently, multiculturalism has been a highly successful policy here in Australia. We are a nation of immigrants and a model for tolerance and the benefits of accepting differences while checking conflicts and ancient enmities at the door. This has worked here, to the mutual benefit of all, for the last one hundred years. It’s only recently that some – who ASSURE us they aren’t racist – have decided they don’t want it to work any more. And they just happen to want it to stop working with those immigrants who have darker skin, the wrong shaped eyes or follow the wrong religion.<br>
<br>
I can’t see any reason why it can’t continue to work here and why it can’t work elsewhere as well. Apart from the fact that it requires people to be tolerant, open-minded, accepting and unselfish, which seems to be a big ask in the current global climate of insularity, self-interest and fear. And that's a climate ripe to be manipulated by a particular type of cynical (or dangerous) politician.<br>
<br>
Scary stuff indeed.<br>
<p>Tim O'Neill / Thiudareiks Flavius<BR>
<P>
Visit Clades Variana - Home of the Varus Film Project<br>
</p><i></i>
Tim ONeill / Thiudareiks Flavius /Thiudareiks Gunthigg
HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
HISTORY FOR ATHEISTS - New Atheists Getting History Wrong
