The Dacians: Rome\'s Greatest Enemy?

[Frostwulf]

Sorry it took so long to reply diegis.

What i want to point out is that Romans suffered heavy losses and not just that Domitian already bring lots of troops near Dacian frontiers (i think around 8 legions based along Danube from Panonia all along Moesia)

Pannonia had an increase from 2 to 4 legions, that was not from the Dacians but from the Suebi(Marcomanni,Quadi) and Sarmatians.

The number of legions in Pannonia had grown from the original two to four, and Domitian did nothing to diminish that number. This is significant when it is remembered that no other province held more then three legions. Pg.108

Yes the Romans suffered heavy losses, but not just by the Dacians!

but Trajan bring other two and form another two for those wars. This beside the very numerous auxiliar troops and iregular troops raised just for these wars (like German mercenaries showed on the Column half naked and armed just with clubs).

Karl Strobel is one of those who mention numbers as 175,000 Roman soldiers strong army assembled by Trajan in the war zone area

Yes "in or on the flanks" of the war zone which would include, Pannonia, Dalmatia, etc. etc. not just the war zone itself. Did you read the next paragraph about "heady stuff" and "in great need of proof"? Again this certainly could be possible, but this does not present the amount that went into the war zone. I think Nathan Ross came up with a good figure, a little less the Leper and Frere but possibly more then J.Bennet. Of course no need to go into this part again, as I have seen nothing new since our previous discussion(an enjoyable discussion at that).

Both Domitian and later Trajan did take troops from other frontiers and from all over the empire for these wars. The conquest of Caledonia is halted and Agricola and his troops are called back for ex. Legions from Orient, Britania and Germania (alongside Germanic mercenaries, probably bring both as "cannon foder" and to weaken the possibility of troubles in Germania) was bring in by Trajan.

This show the emergency and importance of this confrontation, with the risk of weakening the Parthian and German borders.

Yes after the Fuscus ambush some troops were sent for the Dacian war:

The scenario thus forming is that Domitian drew extra troops for the Dacian war from Britain, which measure rendered it imperative to abandon Scotland. This may have occurred as early as the winter of 86/7, not long after the loss of Fuscus and his army in Dacia. Pg.73

But also note, that units were taken from Britain at other times:

It is but a short step to the conclusion that Agricola’s sixth season belonged to 82, that Domitian was collecting troops in 82 for the Chattan war fought in 83, and that he took a number of men from at least one of the legions of Britain. Pg.71

Strobel assigns the vexillations to the expedition against the Marcomanni and Quadi. This would place the special command and the withdrawal of troops from Britain in 89, long after Agricola’s campaigns.

Yes this wasn't as urgent as the upcoming front against the Dacians, but what was the reason for making a treaty with the Dacians as opposed to the Marcomanni? Remember the Dacians had just been heavily defeated by the Romans (Tetius Julianus), the Marcomanni had not. Decebalus had been asking for treaties(real ones this time) and perhaps the Marcomanni and Sarmatians were not after defeating the Romans.

Domitian, then, visited Moesia for the first time in 85, immediately after Oppius Sabinus’s defeat (expeditione... in Dacos... prima, Oppio Sabino oppresso: Dom. 6.1) refusing to accept peace overtures from the Dacians and ultimately sending Fuscus out against them (Dio 67.6.3-5). Pg. 139

And the danger posed by Dacians, if we look at the very few ancient mentions preserved today (beside Tacitus who was already mention and who talk about Roman armies lost to Dacians):

Excellent quotes, one of the reasons I enjoy debating with you. But here is the question, what is "large" in terms of men? When Augustus lost 3 legions to the Germani, was he not lamenting of this huge loss? "Varus, give me back my legions!". No where does it seem in any of those quotes equaling the loss of three legions lost by Varus, which is why Fuscus may have had a large force, but it was around 2 legions.

Then Romans was forced to pay a tribute to Dacians, who kept anyway the captured battle standards and war booty, plus receiving lots of money from the empire, and engineers and military instructors which allow them to profesionalize even more their army, in Roman style, including the construction and use of "artilery" as scorpions, balistae or catapults as its seen on Trajan Column

To avoid a two front war this is what he did, but according to both Southern and Bennet, Domitian was getting ready for another thrust into Dacia, that is until problems arose:

Despite the derision of contemporary observers, all writing after the fact, it is clear that Domitian’s Suebic-Sarmatic wars were the necessary preliminaries to an intended military settlement of the Dacian problem. And such a settlement was required, to avenge the defeats of Sabinus and Fuscus and to escape the crippling subsidies agreed with Decebalus for his neutrality after the debacle of 89, which included large sums of money ‘as well as artisans of every trade pertaining to both peace and war’. In the event, Domitians never resumed hostilities against the Dacians, perhaps because intermittent warfare with the Suebi continued for another five years. Pg.31

I wont answer the rest of you post, as we have had this discussion before, though as I said a very interesting discussion. But I will give you this reminder, Tettius Julianus heavily defeated Decebalus and his Dacians at Tapae with around 4 legions, there is no reason for Trajan to need more then that.

I did forget one other thing, I do agree that the aux. troops were used to spare "citizen blood", but it should be noted that the aux. troops did the majority of the fighting and therefore the majority of the winning. Spiedel points out the club men in particular on Trajans column.