02-02-2013, 09:44 PM
@ diegis I skipped the first one and you will see why
Yes Varus did have less men the Lysimachus, but Dromichaetes outnumbered Lysimachus, whereas Varus outnumbered Arminius!
Varus did have military experience with the revolt in Judea(Lysimachus was certainly more experienced) and he was warned about the situation(as you pointed out) from Aminius father in law Segestes, not to mention he hardly could have failed to be aware of the locals dislike for the Romans, after all he was going to quell an uprising.
And this is more of Seuthes doing, not Dromichaetes. Seuthes was able to convince Lysimachus to walk into a trap as did Arminius to Varus. That's it, end of story! No difference that both were led to a trap, which hardly enables you to call Dromichaetes a "Sun Tzi". Dromichaetes didn't perform any tactical feats of mention, just that his general, not himself but his general led Lysimachus into a trap.
Furthermore if you are to compare the armies, you have the typical citizen army of Lysimachus who was:
Lysimachus had no chance, as his men(citizen, not professional)were on the verge of dying from thirst and hunger were attacked by a foe who outnumbered Lysimachus. Now you have to wonder how intelligent Lysimachus was to allow his army to get into that situation of supply, where it is unlikely the Romans would have let that happen.
Now comparing Arminius who was facing a numerically superior and professional army led the Romans into an elaborate trap, which did kill most of the Romans. Does this make Arminius a "Sun Tzu", hardly, but his Germani accomplished much more then Dromichaetes did as far as the battle goes.
Politically I would call it even, as Tacitus seems to hint at that the massacre of Varus was pretty much the end of any dream of conquering Germania.
For Dromichaetes he received land and an ally. So yea pretty much even politically, certainly a win for the Germani and Arminius militarily.
No this is the evidence: Domitian was building up forces in Moesia which would not have gone unnoticed by Decebalus. Paraphrasing Dio, he states that large numbers were killed by the Romans in which that Decebalus was considered conquered. That is the evidence, what you put forth was simple supposition based completely on wishful thinking. It is as the professionals say, Decebalus was crushed by Tettius Julianus and came pleading to Domitian.
Quote:Well, lets see the differences. Varus had some 25,000 soldiers, asa medium. Lets say 30,000 if you wish. Lysimachus had 100,000 soldiers.
Varus thought he march in a friendly, subdued teritory, and didnt expected any attacks (even dismissed such informations, so yes, he was inept enough). Lysimachus knew he march in enemy teritory and was prepared for battle, not to mention he was an experienced comander who was all the time near Alex the Great during his battles
Yes Varus did have less men the Lysimachus, but Dromichaetes outnumbered Lysimachus, whereas Varus outnumbered Arminius!
Varus did have military experience with the revolt in Judea(Lysimachus was certainly more experienced) and he was warned about the situation(as you pointed out) from Aminius father in law Segestes, not to mention he hardly could have failed to be aware of the locals dislike for the Romans, after all he was going to quell an uprising.
Quote:Arminius was a Roman citizen and trusted Roman oficer, Seuthes (Dromichaetes general) was a foreign that needed to gain the trust of Macedonians
And this is more of Seuthes doing, not Dromichaetes. Seuthes was able to convince Lysimachus to walk into a trap as did Arminius to Varus. That's it, end of story! No difference that both were led to a trap, which hardly enables you to call Dromichaetes a "Sun Tzi". Dromichaetes didn't perform any tactical feats of mention, just that his general, not himself but his general led Lysimachus into a trap.
Furthermore if you are to compare the armies, you have the typical citizen army of Lysimachus who was:
Quote:In the event, the army which finally faced Dromichaetes was clearly at its last gasp. Lysimachus sustained crushing losses: his personal surrender is variously ascribed to nobility or thirst! For Lysimachus’ reception by Dromichaetes and his subsequent release we are largely dependent on Diodorus XX.F.12. While part of this passage probably derives from Hieronymus, its reliability as a whole as evidence for the constitution of Dromichaetes’ ‘stat’ and his economic position is questionable. Pg.48
Lysimachus had no chance, as his men(citizen, not professional)were on the verge of dying from thirst and hunger were attacked by a foe who outnumbered Lysimachus. Now you have to wonder how intelligent Lysimachus was to allow his army to get into that situation of supply, where it is unlikely the Romans would have let that happen.
Now comparing Arminius who was facing a numerically superior and professional army led the Romans into an elaborate trap, which did kill most of the Romans. Does this make Arminius a "Sun Tzu", hardly, but his Germani accomplished much more then Dromichaetes did as far as the battle goes.
Politically I would call it even, as Tacitus seems to hint at that the massacre of Varus was pretty much the end of any dream of conquering Germania.
For Dromichaetes he received land and an ally. So yea pretty much even politically, certainly a win for the Germani and Arminius militarily.
Quote:About Tettius, all the evidence show us that he just made a simple raid at the end of the season, to surprise the Dacians. More so as it was during harvesting season here, so the Army was gathered more slowly and probably in less numbers. This alone tells you that was not a conquest attempt, just a response to show to Dacians that Romans are still able to bite back. Thats why he chose the shortest road too (but the heaviest in the same time), to go and return as quickly as possible, before some bigger Dacian army will be formed
No this is the evidence: Domitian was building up forces in Moesia which would not have gone unnoticed by Decebalus. Paraphrasing Dio, he states that large numbers were killed by the Romans in which that Decebalus was considered conquered. That is the evidence, what you put forth was simple supposition based completely on wishful thinking. It is as the professionals say, Decebalus was crushed by Tettius Julianus and came pleading to Domitian.
Thor
