02-22-2013, 01:46 PM
Robert wrote:
I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide me with an answer to a direct question, rather than to send me another riddle. What do cavalry facemasks from the West have to do with civilization levels? These are practical items, not proof of civilization accomplishments. Please elaborate how Roman equipment in the East differed from that in the West, based on your presude 'differences in civilization level' between these parts. I mean, I'm sure you have more than one (presumed) early facemask from Homs?
Robert, am I that abbrasive? I am sorry if I have irritated you, but I always assume the only way you can make someone see things is by letting them take a look at it. I never learn! If you cannot see the difference in civilisation levels if you compare the beautifully sculpted Syrian helmet to the crude helmets from Gaul, then what help would it do if I remind you that the hellenistic Levant had been an urban, mercantile civilisation long before the Romans occupied it, while Gaul only became urbanised after the Roman occupation, and to a far more limited extent?
I did not mean to antagonise you, but though I believe you are well informed, I think you only look at things from a certain angle. Let me show you what I mean:
Of course you know what I am referring to, the statues of armoured deities form Hatra and, most of all, from Palmyra, show lamellar armour in the old Assyrian construction. You must have seem them.
Obviously I did not know what you were referring to, because we were discussion the armour of the Roman army, not that of Hatra or other non-Roman deities. If that's all you have on Roman soldiers using lamellar armour?
Now I am afraid I am going to irritate you again. I see a dotted line running through the desert, and where it crosses a road there is a barrier and a sign saying "customs" in Latin/Greek and Aramaic/Arabic. On one side Palmyran guards in lamellar armour, on the other local auxilliaries in mail and in the background Roman soldiers in lorica segmentata guarding the customs office. Now I know that is not how you imagine Syria to be in the Roman period, but could you please explain how else I am to explain the above statement? The civilisation of Hellenistic Syria did not stop at the Roman border, the Parthians and the Romans had divided up this area, but the civilisation was the same on both sides of the border.
By the way, you did help me see something:
Exactly, I am turning it around. Ammianus and other Roman authors were in a far better position to study the equipment of their own armoured cavalry, than to see the equipment of the enemy. More important, most of their readers would only be aquainted with Roman armoured cavalry.
I disagree. Of course Ammianus’ readers would not often be in the position to watch Sassanid cavalry forming up (if they were lucky) but most of his readers would also never see a Roman soldier in real life. I don’t see it as a reason NOT to describe Roman cavalry, that’s for sure.
I will not going into the matter of Romans not having seen Roman soldiers, but that reminded me: at festivals, games, religious and state celebrations, the soldiers had to turn up in their finery. Perhaps Heliodoros got his image of cataphracts from Roman cavalry, assisting at celebrations, decked out in their most colourfull equipment and perhaps wearing ornate sports helmets instead of their usual equipment? Easy Robert, it is just a suggestion. :grin:
I would greatly appreciate it if you could provide me with an answer to a direct question, rather than to send me another riddle. What do cavalry facemasks from the West have to do with civilization levels? These are practical items, not proof of civilization accomplishments. Please elaborate how Roman equipment in the East differed from that in the West, based on your presude 'differences in civilization level' between these parts. I mean, I'm sure you have more than one (presumed) early facemask from Homs?
Robert, am I that abbrasive? I am sorry if I have irritated you, but I always assume the only way you can make someone see things is by letting them take a look at it. I never learn! If you cannot see the difference in civilisation levels if you compare the beautifully sculpted Syrian helmet to the crude helmets from Gaul, then what help would it do if I remind you that the hellenistic Levant had been an urban, mercantile civilisation long before the Romans occupied it, while Gaul only became urbanised after the Roman occupation, and to a far more limited extent?
I did not mean to antagonise you, but though I believe you are well informed, I think you only look at things from a certain angle. Let me show you what I mean:
Of course you know what I am referring to, the statues of armoured deities form Hatra and, most of all, from Palmyra, show lamellar armour in the old Assyrian construction. You must have seem them.
Obviously I did not know what you were referring to, because we were discussion the armour of the Roman army, not that of Hatra or other non-Roman deities. If that's all you have on Roman soldiers using lamellar armour?
Now I am afraid I am going to irritate you again. I see a dotted line running through the desert, and where it crosses a road there is a barrier and a sign saying "customs" in Latin/Greek and Aramaic/Arabic. On one side Palmyran guards in lamellar armour, on the other local auxilliaries in mail and in the background Roman soldiers in lorica segmentata guarding the customs office. Now I know that is not how you imagine Syria to be in the Roman period, but could you please explain how else I am to explain the above statement? The civilisation of Hellenistic Syria did not stop at the Roman border, the Parthians and the Romans had divided up this area, but the civilisation was the same on both sides of the border.
By the way, you did help me see something:
Exactly, I am turning it around. Ammianus and other Roman authors were in a far better position to study the equipment of their own armoured cavalry, than to see the equipment of the enemy. More important, most of their readers would only be aquainted with Roman armoured cavalry.
I disagree. Of course Ammianus’ readers would not often be in the position to watch Sassanid cavalry forming up (if they were lucky) but most of his readers would also never see a Roman soldier in real life. I don’t see it as a reason NOT to describe Roman cavalry, that’s for sure.
I will not going into the matter of Romans not having seen Roman soldiers, but that reminded me: at festivals, games, religious and state celebrations, the soldiers had to turn up in their finery. Perhaps Heliodoros got his image of cataphracts from Roman cavalry, assisting at celebrations, decked out in their most colourfull equipment and perhaps wearing ornate sports helmets instead of their usual equipment? Easy Robert, it is just a suggestion. :grin:
