Face mask or face guard in late roman period

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert, am I that abrasive? [..] I did not mean to antagonise you, but though I believe you are well informed

Not abrasive, and sure I am informed, but nevertheless I got a bit irked when presented with your answer ('go compare this and that and you'll see I'm right'). It did not help me, nor other readers of this discussion. It’s not a chat, after all. No harm done, we will speak of it no more.

If you cannot see the difference in civilisation levels if you compare the beautifully sculpted Syrian helmet to the crude helmets from Gaul, then what help would it do if I remind you that the hellenistic Levant had been an urban, mercantile civilisation long before the Romans occupied it, while Gaul only became urbanised after the Roman occupation, and to a far more limited extent?

I can surely see the differences between Syrian cities and those in Gaul, and I also see the difference between a fine piece of equipment and one that seems to be crude. However:
- one item is clearly made for practical use, while the other is made for a different purpose. Usable yes, but made to show off.
- the differences between both items has nothing to do with the ability to make them, nor does it reflect on the regions of origin. I have no doubt (as other items prove) that in Gaul, elaborately decorated helmets could be produced. They were.
Back to our discussion, I see no reason to assume differences in equipment between Roman units from the East and those from the West, based on ‘differences in civilization’ between East and West. The army produced for everyone to the same standard, and although soldiers surely bought local items of equipment they did not replace their entire kit with those.

Now I am afraid I am going to irritate you again. I see a dotted line running through the desert, and where it crosses a road there is a barrier and a sign saying "customs" in Latin/Greek and Aramaic/Arabic. On one side Palmyran guards in lamellar armour, on the other local auxilliaries in mail and in the background Roman soldiers in lorica segmentata guarding the customs office. Now I know that is not how you imagine Syria to be in the Roman period, but could you please explain how else I am to explain the above statement? The civilisation of Hellenistic Syria did not stop at the Roman border, the Parthians and the Romans had divided up this area, but the civilisation was the same on both sides of the border.

Oh for sure this influence was present, I don’t deny that (and I’m not irritated, you explained yourself perfectly this time). I can even go beyond that, local auxiliaries and allies would even be seen to wear such equipment to some extent, I have no doubt of it.
But it goes to far to look at a deity from Hatra and simply say ‘look, the influenced Rome’ and to go on accepting that ‘therefore’, Roman legionaries ‘had to’ wear the same equipment. Rome produced armour for their troops, and so far we don’t see them producing lamellar.
I could turn this around of course, and state that the hatra deity was influenced by Persian armour, instead of the Hatra deity reflecting what Roman soldiers would have worn.

I will not going into the matter of Romans not having seen Roman soldiers, but that reminded me: at festivals, games, religious and state celebrations, the soldiers had to turn up in their finery. Perhaps Heliodoros got his image of cataphracts from Roman cavalry, assisting at celebrations, decked out in their most colourfull equipment and perhaps wearing ornate sports helmets instead of their usual equipment? Easy Robert, it is just a suggestion. :grin:

Why would Roman troops wear armour during festivities? Military games did not involve civilians, and those troops seen by civilians during festive occasions would either be on parade (which did not happen very often) or be present in off-duty clothing, which did not differ very much from what civilians wore themselves. But most civilians would not see a soldier, if they did not live in a frontier province or in the capitals where parades were held. We’re talking about a small minority.