05-12-2013, 08:46 AM
Hi again
I don't know if the helmet pictured in Chris' book is the same one he mentioned as being pierced at the back of the helmet by the spear (I'll have to ask him). Certainly it wasn't the nail hole for mounting the helmet to a wall, as he knows the difference and in fact cites the nail holes as evidence that they weren't holes made by a sarouter being used to finish the hoplite off.
I don't know if I agree with a blanket statement that the spear couldn't penetrate armour unless the hoplite was prone. Chris demonstrated that the Gabriel and Metz study was using a spear about half the weight of an average dory and also the 2mm thick plates they were using are not representative of the average thickness of hoplite armour. He demonstrated that even the energy from the underhand shot (as calculated by them) could penetrate 1mm armour with a 1.4kg dory (my dory is 1.8kg, perhaps because I'm using hardwood and the taper is only from the balance point on mine and not the entire length of the shaft).
I think the issue of whether armour could be penetrated in combat would be down to a number of factors. If the argument is that the shot would knock a person over before the armour was penetrated, then I would argue that would largely depend on the circumstances. If both sides were moving forward for the initial clash, then the momentum of both persons would also need to be factored in, and if they were locked in close order, with the aspis of the hoplite in the rank behind the victim hard up against their back, then I doubt they would have much room to move to absorb the energy of the shot.
Also, the sample size Chris used wasn't a single helmet, he examined hundreds. I haven't seen the table of the various damage found on all these helmets, but what is identifiable as spear damage is invariably from the front and mainly with a flat trajectory. He also found that in some cases, the damage may be a gouge, rather than penetration of the armour.
A bit of trivia as an example of gouging in helmets: I have in my possession a replica Corinthian made in 1974 in brass by John Harris, a founder of the Ancient and Medieval Martial Arts Society (which I joined in 1979). AMMAS was doing ancient Greek, Roman and gladiator combat from 1971 in Sydney. The Corinthian has been in literally hundreds of combats over the years. It has a significant gouge running above the left eye almost straight up and a neat series of dots running across and up the left cheek guard where a spear skidded across it. Both occasions were accidents, as head shots were avoided, though spears and tridents were never padded (but were blunt). Both pieces of damage show the strikes were coming from underhand shots with the opponents facing each other (they were both from a Persian spear held in a low underarm position).
Cheers
Peter MacKinnon
I don't know if the helmet pictured in Chris' book is the same one he mentioned as being pierced at the back of the helmet by the spear (I'll have to ask him). Certainly it wasn't the nail hole for mounting the helmet to a wall, as he knows the difference and in fact cites the nail holes as evidence that they weren't holes made by a sarouter being used to finish the hoplite off.
I don't know if I agree with a blanket statement that the spear couldn't penetrate armour unless the hoplite was prone. Chris demonstrated that the Gabriel and Metz study was using a spear about half the weight of an average dory and also the 2mm thick plates they were using are not representative of the average thickness of hoplite armour. He demonstrated that even the energy from the underhand shot (as calculated by them) could penetrate 1mm armour with a 1.4kg dory (my dory is 1.8kg, perhaps because I'm using hardwood and the taper is only from the balance point on mine and not the entire length of the shaft).
I think the issue of whether armour could be penetrated in combat would be down to a number of factors. If the argument is that the shot would knock a person over before the armour was penetrated, then I would argue that would largely depend on the circumstances. If both sides were moving forward for the initial clash, then the momentum of both persons would also need to be factored in, and if they were locked in close order, with the aspis of the hoplite in the rank behind the victim hard up against their back, then I doubt they would have much room to move to absorb the energy of the shot.
Also, the sample size Chris used wasn't a single helmet, he examined hundreds. I haven't seen the table of the various damage found on all these helmets, but what is identifiable as spear damage is invariably from the front and mainly with a flat trajectory. He also found that in some cases, the damage may be a gouge, rather than penetration of the armour.
A bit of trivia as an example of gouging in helmets: I have in my possession a replica Corinthian made in 1974 in brass by John Harris, a founder of the Ancient and Medieval Martial Arts Society (which I joined in 1979). AMMAS was doing ancient Greek, Roman and gladiator combat from 1971 in Sydney. The Corinthian has been in literally hundreds of combats over the years. It has a significant gouge running above the left eye almost straight up and a neat series of dots running across and up the left cheek guard where a spear skidded across it. Both occasions were accidents, as head shots were avoided, though spears and tridents were never padded (but were blunt). Both pieces of damage show the strikes were coming from underhand shots with the opponents facing each other (they were both from a Persian spear held in a low underarm position).
Cheers
Peter MacKinnon
