05-31-2013, 04:56 AM
Mark wrote:
but what we have from the Imperial period is a listing of the ranks of the 6-century cohorts in the legions as well as tombstone evidence. In both cases the ranks seem to indicate a clear harking back to the Republican era in nomenclature (hastati, principes, triarii/pilus coupled with prior & posterior).
The problem you are facing Mark and one I faced years back is the prior and posterior century arrangements of the republic are different to the prior and posterior arrangement of the centuries during the Imperial period because both periods have a completely different deployment arrangements.
Mark wrote:
two centuries (hand, like the standard-tops), each able of individual control within a maniple pairing - used tactically together forming their part of manipular tactics - where the rear century (from marching and deploying whilst still in open order 1 pace/3ft apart) is then able to manoeuvre on the battlefield to the left of the prior and so form an unbroken 'line'
And you claimed I was making the Roman legion complex. Your tactic requires the posterior century to conduct a 90 degree facing turn (left or right) then move out to cover the gap in the line and when aligned, must halt so the posterior century can again conduct another 90 degree facing turn so as to face the gap, and finally the posterior century has to move up into the gap. This gives a total of six commands (turn, move, halt, turn, move, halt). Come on Mark, as Bryan stated, their farm boys…so it needs to be very simple. He’s my interpretation of Polybius’ legion with gaps in the line. It is called the Serra formation (saw) which is taken from Gellius’ list of the seven Roman battle formations. I picked Serra because it seemed obvious.
[attachment=7340]LegioninSerracopy.jpg[/attachment]
Working from right to left, maniples 5 and 6 are the directing maniples and are used to co-ordinate the rest of the line. Also notice how the flanks remain symmetrical as opposed to the impractical quincunx formation. In regard to the hastati and principes you have 6 maniples forward and four maniples held back. The 6 maniples forward and the 4 maniples back produce the ratio 3:2 which funny enough is the Pythagorean ratio for the perfect fifth, which I will add is what Rome is built on. To fill the gaps I have to get my farm boys to move forward. So there are two commands (move and halt) versus your six commands (turn, move, halt, turn, move, halt). Now at this stage of the battle the enemy turn up with a bunch of elephants. However, our commander is not fussed because he knows what to do and he knows the simple training regarding drill given to his farm boys can be carried out without confusion. To create lanes from the Serra formation, of the four maniples held back, and working from right to left, maniple two moves to the right flank and takes up position behind maniple one. At the same time, maniple four also moves to the right and takes up position behind maniple three. Maniple nine moves to the left flank and takes up position behind maniple 10, while maniple seven moves to the left and takes up position directly behind maniple eight. This manoeuvre does mean the farm boys need to know how to conduct a facing turn and how to move. So in all four commands (turn, move, halt, turn).
[attachment=7341]Legionwithcavalrylanes.jpg[/attachment]
Mark wrote:
I didn't agree with Bryan's idea that the pilus/principes/hastati distinctions remained and held any significance beyond the seniority within a cohort now we were in the Late Republic and soldiers were now commonly armed and armoured from central state sources).
On one hand Mark in order to support your thesis you say things don’t change with the Roman army then on the other dismiss the old traditions. How about if both you and Bryan are right? The names pilus/principes/hastati etc are to define seniority for centurions, but I also have the legion for the late republic also defined by age. So a hastatus centurion is still like the old days commanding the younger soldiers. Let’s not forget that Caesar takes the youngest men from the front line of his army and the oldest men to guard the camp. He can’t do this without having age classifications for the legion.
but what we have from the Imperial period is a listing of the ranks of the 6-century cohorts in the legions as well as tombstone evidence. In both cases the ranks seem to indicate a clear harking back to the Republican era in nomenclature (hastati, principes, triarii/pilus coupled with prior & posterior).
The problem you are facing Mark and one I faced years back is the prior and posterior century arrangements of the republic are different to the prior and posterior arrangement of the centuries during the Imperial period because both periods have a completely different deployment arrangements.
Mark wrote:
two centuries (hand, like the standard-tops), each able of individual control within a maniple pairing - used tactically together forming their part of manipular tactics - where the rear century (from marching and deploying whilst still in open order 1 pace/3ft apart) is then able to manoeuvre on the battlefield to the left of the prior and so form an unbroken 'line'
And you claimed I was making the Roman legion complex. Your tactic requires the posterior century to conduct a 90 degree facing turn (left or right) then move out to cover the gap in the line and when aligned, must halt so the posterior century can again conduct another 90 degree facing turn so as to face the gap, and finally the posterior century has to move up into the gap. This gives a total of six commands (turn, move, halt, turn, move, halt). Come on Mark, as Bryan stated, their farm boys…so it needs to be very simple. He’s my interpretation of Polybius’ legion with gaps in the line. It is called the Serra formation (saw) which is taken from Gellius’ list of the seven Roman battle formations. I picked Serra because it seemed obvious.
[attachment=7340]LegioninSerracopy.jpg[/attachment]
Working from right to left, maniples 5 and 6 are the directing maniples and are used to co-ordinate the rest of the line. Also notice how the flanks remain symmetrical as opposed to the impractical quincunx formation. In regard to the hastati and principes you have 6 maniples forward and four maniples held back. The 6 maniples forward and the 4 maniples back produce the ratio 3:2 which funny enough is the Pythagorean ratio for the perfect fifth, which I will add is what Rome is built on. To fill the gaps I have to get my farm boys to move forward. So there are two commands (move and halt) versus your six commands (turn, move, halt, turn, move, halt). Now at this stage of the battle the enemy turn up with a bunch of elephants. However, our commander is not fussed because he knows what to do and he knows the simple training regarding drill given to his farm boys can be carried out without confusion. To create lanes from the Serra formation, of the four maniples held back, and working from right to left, maniple two moves to the right flank and takes up position behind maniple one. At the same time, maniple four also moves to the right and takes up position behind maniple three. Maniple nine moves to the left flank and takes up position behind maniple 10, while maniple seven moves to the left and takes up position directly behind maniple eight. This manoeuvre does mean the farm boys need to know how to conduct a facing turn and how to move. So in all four commands (turn, move, halt, turn).
[attachment=7341]Legionwithcavalrylanes.jpg[/attachment]
Mark wrote:
I didn't agree with Bryan's idea that the pilus/principes/hastati distinctions remained and held any significance beyond the seniority within a cohort now we were in the Late Republic and soldiers were now commonly armed and armoured from central state sources).
On one hand Mark in order to support your thesis you say things don’t change with the Roman army then on the other dismiss the old traditions. How about if both you and Bryan are right? The names pilus/principes/hastati etc are to define seniority for centurions, but I also have the legion for the late republic also defined by age. So a hastatus centurion is still like the old days commanding the younger soldiers. Let’s not forget that Caesar takes the youngest men from the front line of his army and the oldest men to guard the camp. He can’t do this without having age classifications for the legion.
