08-06-2013, 07:38 PM
Mark,
Please don't take my posts as personal attacks. You provided a theory on a forum dedicated to debate. Part of that is having to defend your theory when challenged.
For the sake of the situation, I picked an arbitrary enemy, the Helvetti, because they were the first that came to mind. It could just as easily substituted wild Gallic tribes fighting naked swinging long swords. The point I was trying to make was for you to describe how you would form a hypothetical century in battle and how you would control it, based off sources and your own personal "common sense." Additionally, I asked for detail, as "it makes eminently good sense" is not an explanation.
As a former military officer, please feel free to put your response in an operations order format, which I am sure you are familiar with. Whatever your methods, it doesn't matter. You can just use a narrative if you want. I am just looking for a more detailed description as to why you keep stating that it makes sense when referencing certain techniques that appear to be based off of guesswork and speculation, as the sources are not clear enough exactly as to how it was done.
Your response doesn't need to be 10 pages long. A simple paragraph or two would suffice. I included an example of this, per my own perspective:
"I had 80 men in my century but of them, only 22 were worth their salt as far as I was concerned. Based off their previous experiences and from what I have seen during the recent months of campaigning and training, I selected these men for their bravery, strength, height, aggressiveness and their ability to fight. Not to say that all 22 were perfect soldiers. To be perfectly blunt, of the 22, over half of them are a pain to lead, they are usually drunk or argumentative and frequently get into trouble. However, if I am to win a fight, I need fighters and these men will do. I could only wish that all 80 of my men were all aggressive killers but that is never the case. Most are only here because they were conscripted and care only about saving their own skin and any possible plunder they might find during this campaign. On top of that, I firmly believe about 15 of the men are outright cowards and will run at the first opportunity, my optio has his job cut out for him coming battle. It might help that I issued orders to him, in front of the entire century, that any man who falters or runs is to instantly be killed.
I plan on sticking the 10 best of my men in the front rank, with the others behind them. These men, the ones who love fighting and have demonstrated they are good at it, will fight beside me, with the standards, and will serve as the vanguard of the century. When we attack, we'll do so at the run. Toss pilum and hit the enemy, before they have a chance to recover. If our luck holds, the enemy's shields might be pierced, men may fall, which will make our jobs easier. If not, then we'll bash them with shields, stab them in the faces and groins. Kill as many as we can. At all costs, we must keep our formation. It helps that I also told everyone that if any man, it doesn't matter who, breaks from formation for any reason other than to retrieve a weapon or to save a mate, that man will be scourged and beheaded by nightfall.
Come battle, should one of the men in the front rank grow tired, or become wounded, or simply stop wanting to fight, I told them that that man shall step back and signal the man behind him to be relieved. But they better have a damn good reason, as I will be leading from the front the entire time this century is in the fight. If I have to fight, they do too. But I warned the men to wait for a lull if they can, you don't want to catch an errant Gallic sword to the back of your neck when you turn around within spitting distance of the enemy.
Relying on these 22 men, especially the 10 in the front, is a challenge. No man asks for death, at least no sane man, but I think I can motivate them. And it won't just be them, every man in this century will be in danger, even those away from the front ranks. We will have to weather a storm of javelins, stones from slings and arrows before we even get close to the enemy and will probably be hit by missiles for the duration of the fight. But we can do it. I will award every man who fights hard with dona. Phalarae, torcs, armalae, even crowns. On top of that, I am offering a cash gift from my own substantial stipend for every enemy head my men bring back to me, as well as first dibs on any beautiful women we might find in the enemy's train. If pride and glory aren't enough, gold, silver and the touch of a woman's breast will suffice to harden their hearts.
In the long run, I believe my efforts will work. The fighting 22 are hard men and I think I picked them well. They know that pain heals, women love scars and glory lasts forever. If they perform well enough, who knows, a vine staff might be in their future. What brave ranker soldier doesn't desire some day to be a centurion? Besides, what choice do they have? In the Roman army its takes a brave man to be a coward, what with the tribunes and the Imperator himself riding directly behind our front line, alwasy watching us, on the lookout for bravery and cowardice alike. My father told me the tale of the carrot and the stick, I firmly believe its a sound method."
Mark,
Also, here is the forum rule in reference to names.
"We require every member to put their real (first) name in their signatures. Feel free to use a Roman username, but accompany it with your real first name. After all, isn't it nice to actually know who you're talking with, rather than some faceless moniker? If for some reason (job, privacy, security) you simply can't identify yourself, we do consider exceptions, just discuss your request with the mod/admin staff."
My name is Bryan.
Sempronius Densus,
See above for details of methods for motivating men to fight. All are based off of ancient or modern sources. Think about it, instead of waiting 6 months to over a year for an award for heroism, you are awarded that very night. Cash incentives given out on the spot, corporal punishment and summary judgment for infractions without the need of lawyers. In my opinion, Romans had a reward/punishment system that modern military commanders should be drooling over.
Please don't take my posts as personal attacks. You provided a theory on a forum dedicated to debate. Part of that is having to defend your theory when challenged.
For the sake of the situation, I picked an arbitrary enemy, the Helvetti, because they were the first that came to mind. It could just as easily substituted wild Gallic tribes fighting naked swinging long swords. The point I was trying to make was for you to describe how you would form a hypothetical century in battle and how you would control it, based off sources and your own personal "common sense." Additionally, I asked for detail, as "it makes eminently good sense" is not an explanation.
As a former military officer, please feel free to put your response in an operations order format, which I am sure you are familiar with. Whatever your methods, it doesn't matter. You can just use a narrative if you want. I am just looking for a more detailed description as to why you keep stating that it makes sense when referencing certain techniques that appear to be based off of guesswork and speculation, as the sources are not clear enough exactly as to how it was done.
Your response doesn't need to be 10 pages long. A simple paragraph or two would suffice. I included an example of this, per my own perspective:
"I had 80 men in my century but of them, only 22 were worth their salt as far as I was concerned. Based off their previous experiences and from what I have seen during the recent months of campaigning and training, I selected these men for their bravery, strength, height, aggressiveness and their ability to fight. Not to say that all 22 were perfect soldiers. To be perfectly blunt, of the 22, over half of them are a pain to lead, they are usually drunk or argumentative and frequently get into trouble. However, if I am to win a fight, I need fighters and these men will do. I could only wish that all 80 of my men were all aggressive killers but that is never the case. Most are only here because they were conscripted and care only about saving their own skin and any possible plunder they might find during this campaign. On top of that, I firmly believe about 15 of the men are outright cowards and will run at the first opportunity, my optio has his job cut out for him coming battle. It might help that I issued orders to him, in front of the entire century, that any man who falters or runs is to instantly be killed.
I plan on sticking the 10 best of my men in the front rank, with the others behind them. These men, the ones who love fighting and have demonstrated they are good at it, will fight beside me, with the standards, and will serve as the vanguard of the century. When we attack, we'll do so at the run. Toss pilum and hit the enemy, before they have a chance to recover. If our luck holds, the enemy's shields might be pierced, men may fall, which will make our jobs easier. If not, then we'll bash them with shields, stab them in the faces and groins. Kill as many as we can. At all costs, we must keep our formation. It helps that I also told everyone that if any man, it doesn't matter who, breaks from formation for any reason other than to retrieve a weapon or to save a mate, that man will be scourged and beheaded by nightfall.
Come battle, should one of the men in the front rank grow tired, or become wounded, or simply stop wanting to fight, I told them that that man shall step back and signal the man behind him to be relieved. But they better have a damn good reason, as I will be leading from the front the entire time this century is in the fight. If I have to fight, they do too. But I warned the men to wait for a lull if they can, you don't want to catch an errant Gallic sword to the back of your neck when you turn around within spitting distance of the enemy.
Relying on these 22 men, especially the 10 in the front, is a challenge. No man asks for death, at least no sane man, but I think I can motivate them. And it won't just be them, every man in this century will be in danger, even those away from the front ranks. We will have to weather a storm of javelins, stones from slings and arrows before we even get close to the enemy and will probably be hit by missiles for the duration of the fight. But we can do it. I will award every man who fights hard with dona. Phalarae, torcs, armalae, even crowns. On top of that, I am offering a cash gift from my own substantial stipend for every enemy head my men bring back to me, as well as first dibs on any beautiful women we might find in the enemy's train. If pride and glory aren't enough, gold, silver and the touch of a woman's breast will suffice to harden their hearts.
In the long run, I believe my efforts will work. The fighting 22 are hard men and I think I picked them well. They know that pain heals, women love scars and glory lasts forever. If they perform well enough, who knows, a vine staff might be in their future. What brave ranker soldier doesn't desire some day to be a centurion? Besides, what choice do they have? In the Roman army its takes a brave man to be a coward, what with the tribunes and the Imperator himself riding directly behind our front line, alwasy watching us, on the lookout for bravery and cowardice alike. My father told me the tale of the carrot and the stick, I firmly believe its a sound method."
Mark,
Also, here is the forum rule in reference to names.
"We require every member to put their real (first) name in their signatures. Feel free to use a Roman username, but accompany it with your real first name. After all, isn't it nice to actually know who you're talking with, rather than some faceless moniker? If for some reason (job, privacy, security) you simply can't identify yourself, we do consider exceptions, just discuss your request with the mod/admin staff."
My name is Bryan.
Sempronius Densus,
See above for details of methods for motivating men to fight. All are based off of ancient or modern sources. Think about it, instead of waiting 6 months to over a year for an award for heroism, you are awarded that very night. Cash incentives given out on the spot, corporal punishment and summary judgment for infractions without the need of lawyers. In my opinion, Romans had a reward/punishment system that modern military commanders should be drooling over.
