Centurion Rank

[Mark Hygate]

..... Livy (44 33) has the primus pilus present at the council of war, then after the pilus centurion notified what was to be done to each of the centurions under his command. Now if the primus pilus was then required to command the triarii or any other unit, how could he be sure the other centurions are following the plan? The primus pilus has to be independent and mounted so he can move around and supervise the other 60 centurions under his command.

Contrary to the traditional thinking, the triarii have no centurions of their own. The triarii are under the command of the centurions belonging to the principes. The triarii are not really expected to be used in battle, but when they are, after the principes fall back, the centurions of the principes take command of the triarii. This arrangement is very predominant in the organisation of the Servian legion, that is the centurion will fall back with the tired men, then pick up the fresh men under his command and advance towards the enemy.....................

Does all of this make the Roman legion a rigid beast as Mark would think? ............... Could it be possible that Polybius has accidentally integrated the details of the 4000 man legion, with the 5000 man legion? If he has done that, that would give everyone a run for their money.
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Well, it's always interesting.....

- Livy [44.33] notes an unusual circumstance in a particular case - normally, as Polybius [VI.24] makes completely clear all 30 of the senior centurions (and I'm at a bit of a loss as to how almost anyone can read that section and not interpret that each maniple (including the triarii) has a pair of centurions for a total of 60) go to the military council - which makes perfect sense given that the maniple is the operational and tactical unit of the time.

- not having centurions for the triarii (this rather strange, I believe, idea that those of the principes command them) would certainly preclude the oft used tactical element of sending the triarii off to do something, particularly to a flank; let alone having the necessary command presence camping the other side of a street from the troops he's now also commanding.

- lastly on that vein, I'm not aware that there's any source that suggests that centurions (of any stripe) were normally mounted.

- I think you and I must have a very different interpretation of 'rigid' vs 'flexible'. Having standards of organisation set is what allows flexibility. Certainly the idea of ever changing organisational structures due to population trends or the movements of the stars is about as un-military as I can think - the logistical nightmares resulting would wear our Quartermasters faster than they could be trained!

- As to the 4,000/4,200 - 5,000 legion; I do not believe you are wrong! They are the same structure.......