12-22-2013, 11:02 PM
Evan, Nathan
The oval shields, unless I'm missing something, would seem to be similar to otherwise 'classic' Auxiliary shields from the earliest Imperial period onward - and perhaps not dissimilar to the 'parma' as described by Polybius (3ft, but "diameter", so I would have guessed 'round'), or the shield described by Josephus. Can I confirm that the measurements given are for the narrowest chord of the 'oval'?
If so, then perhaps the 'semicylindrical' one is the only legionary one and, as I've been suggesting, is in fact so cylindrical due to distortion and is perhaps still 2.5ft wide.
So I don't necessarily see why there might be a "newer style of infantry tactical formation - using the longer spatha" when that's how auxiliary troops were 'normally' armed anyway?
Indeed why don't the finds at Dura Europas in fact suggest that there has been minimal change for 3-5 centuries; given there hasn't been any driver for change?
John,
The Romans certainly used feet (pes) , so I am sure you were not wrong, per se (I can imagine a reader thinking cubit merely for supposed flavour). Whilst my concentration has been on military matters (indeed that's the forum) and I've been particularly looking at Polybius for the unit organisation and the detailed camp layout, it is why the opening statements are as they are. Polybius was Greek and certainly extremely comfortable with the cubit and hence double-cubit (3ft) himself.
Now, whilst the 3ft spacing may still be a matter of discussion and perhaps even experiment - in the shield width Polybius states; the camp layout; and the Military mile (calculated by marching in paces indeed) - I simply see no evidence of 3ft being any sort of basis.
I see in my mind the maniples on parade next to and/or just inside their 100ft camping spaces, even in an open order (one pace gaps) with a 2 (century) x 10 man frontage and 8 deep. Hence my belief in the pace and not 3ft.
Unless I miss my guess entirely, the Romans developed Greek formations and deployment into real, no different to modern (re-developed from the 17thC onward) drill - as the way to move their soldiers about effectively. And 'man' moves about in paces.
The oval shields, unless I'm missing something, would seem to be similar to otherwise 'classic' Auxiliary shields from the earliest Imperial period onward - and perhaps not dissimilar to the 'parma' as described by Polybius (3ft, but "diameter", so I would have guessed 'round'), or the shield described by Josephus. Can I confirm that the measurements given are for the narrowest chord of the 'oval'?
If so, then perhaps the 'semicylindrical' one is the only legionary one and, as I've been suggesting, is in fact so cylindrical due to distortion and is perhaps still 2.5ft wide.
So I don't necessarily see why there might be a "newer style of infantry tactical formation - using the longer spatha" when that's how auxiliary troops were 'normally' armed anyway?
Indeed why don't the finds at Dura Europas in fact suggest that there has been minimal change for 3-5 centuries; given there hasn't been any driver for change?
John,
The Romans certainly used feet (pes) , so I am sure you were not wrong, per se (I can imagine a reader thinking cubit merely for supposed flavour). Whilst my concentration has been on military matters (indeed that's the forum) and I've been particularly looking at Polybius for the unit organisation and the detailed camp layout, it is why the opening statements are as they are. Polybius was Greek and certainly extremely comfortable with the cubit and hence double-cubit (3ft) himself.
Now, whilst the 3ft spacing may still be a matter of discussion and perhaps even experiment - in the shield width Polybius states; the camp layout; and the Military mile (calculated by marching in paces indeed) - I simply see no evidence of 3ft being any sort of basis.
I see in my mind the maniples on parade next to and/or just inside their 100ft camping spaces, even in an open order (one pace gaps) with a 2 (century) x 10 man frontage and 8 deep. Hence my belief in the pace and not 3ft.
Unless I miss my guess entirely, the Romans developed Greek formations and deployment into real, no different to modern (re-developed from the 17thC onward) drill - as the way to move their soldiers about effectively. And 'man' moves about in paces.
