Centurion Position in Battle

[Mark Hygate]

Steven, thank you, I know we may disagree on the size/organization changes of the Roman army, but that was very interesting seeing other agreement, especially from another angle. If you don't mind, I am particularly curious about the following:

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Gellius tells us that a legion had 10 cohorts, 30 maniples and 60 centuries. This has led all and sundry to then align Gellius with Polybius, minus the cohort arrangement. When the masses have done their calculations ...............

Well, I'll happily be an 'all and sundry' and one of the 'masses' - and not just because it fits my views - it also matches my understanding and reading. I don't really see what the issue is, however, in just this context - as those numbers would otherwise seem to match the structure of both the Manipular-Polybian and Late Republic post-Marian? If it's too complex, then I'll just wait for the book.

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Suda pi 2279
Πρίγκιπες: οὕτω καλοῦσι Ῥωμαῖοι τοὺς ἀκμαιοτάτους ταῖς ἡλικίαις: τοὺς γὰρ νεωτέρους καὶ πενιχροτέρους γροσφομάχους καλοῦσιν, εἶτα τοὺς πρίγκιπας: τοὺς δὲ πρεσβύτας τριαρίους: καὶ τοὺς ἁστάτους καλουμένους, οἵ εἰσι πρότεροι τῶν πριγκίπων. καὶ αὗται μὲν αἱ ὀνομασίαι. ἡ δὲ ἐξόπλισις τοὺς μὲν τριαρίους εἶναι χ#, τοὺς δὲ πρίγκιπας #22ασ1#, ἴσους δὲ τούτοις τοὺς ἁστάτους, τοὺς δὲ γροσφομάχους πλείους τῶν τετρακισχιλίων: φορεῖν δὲ μάχαιραν καὶ γρόσφον.

“This is what Romans call those who are in the prime of life; for the younger and poorer men they call velites, then the principes, the oldest men [are called] triarii; and the so-called hastati come before the principes. And these are the names. As regards the deployment: the triarii are 600, the principes 1200, the hastati the same, the velites more than four thousand; and [the velites] carry a sword and a javelin.”

Now this is particularly interesting and I must ask - does there appear to be any ambiguity in the translation or any missing word(s)? For (whilst suggesting the velites number more than 4,000 does seem a bit far fetched), it would obviously make much more sense - to me admittedly - if that phrase was '..., and/with the velites, more than 4,000' (ie possibly a 4,200 legion cf Polybius). That would only be a single 'connective' and a 'break' difference.

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One factor that astounds me with those who study Roman military history is the lack of critical study. Too many things are taken for granted that no one questions them anymore because many believe they have been fully analysed. However, they haven’t. There is one important point that has been overlooked by many scholars past and present and that is Polybius’ (6 20 8-9) remark: “when the strength of each legion is brought up to 4200.”

If a legion numbered 4200 men in the first place, then there is no need to state “the strength of the legion is bought up to 4200 men,” .....................

What all have failed to understand is Polybius is referring to another legion smaller than 4200 men. The history of this legion, including when it was introduced, its size and organisation, and the times it was used and for what purpose it chartered in my book. It has a very interesting history, and is a legion best suited for garrison work and siege operations. When it comes to the Roman legion, I have found Polybius to be the most unreliable source, yet everyone swears by him, and that is the greatest mistake.

The first statement I couldn't agree more with.....

I am very aware of that statement by Polybius (I don't think it's in VI.20, however, but elsewhere), but interpreted it (in its context) in a completely different way. iirc he is describing the reinforcements to existing legions that are already deployed - and therefore levies are sent to 'bring them back up to strength' - for whilst I do grimace when told that units are never at full strength; there is an organisation on paper/papyrus/painted on a wall somewhere.

I am sorry to say, however, that I am amongst those who (from the limited actual organisational soruces that exist) do indeed find Polybius the most reliable - but when you see the draft theory that will become obvious...

Thanks again.