08-12-2014, 02:37 PM
Nathan wrote:
How do you find that to be the case?
The legion still had centuries, which could cause the confusion. At present I have Fatih Ohnur’s list of Lydus, Vegetius and the Perge fragments and there is no listing for the centurion. It could be Ohnur’s list is incomplete but I will need time to determine if that is the case.
Nathan wrote:
The word centurio survives into Greek, as I've mentioned, and references elsewhere strongly suggest that the ordinarius was a centurion (if, perhaps initially, a more senior one).
I agree the centurion ordinarius was a more senior centurion and I believe one of his responsibilities was to create intervals in the battleline. That is why there are only a set number of them in a legion.
Nathan wrote:
Since decani are only mentioned by Vegetius, I think, and he lists them separately to ordinarii/centenarii, I don't see any reason to conflate these roles.
Whether it be a centurion or ordinarius, both have under their command a specific number of decani, which is determined by the size of the century. I have found that the actual number of a legion must end in two zeros. Without Vegetius’ decani organisation of 10:1 the legion does not end in double zeros.
There are two century organisations in a legion, the heterogeneous century and the homogenous century. The heterogeneous century is horizontally organised and the homogenous century is vertically organised. For example a heterogeneous century of 80 men could be based on the different ages of the troops and would look like this:
age division 1 = 20 men
age division 2 = 20 men
age division 3 = 20 men
age division 4 = 20 men
If the legion has sixty centuries then the legion numbers 4800 men organised into sixty heterogeneous centuries of 80 men. However, by multiplying each age division by 60 centuries, the result is:
age division 1 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
age division 2 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
age division 3 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
age division 4 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
The legion still numbers 4800 men, but what happens if each age division of 1200 men is organised into homogeneous centuries each of 80 men.
age division 1 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
age division 2 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
age division 3 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
age division 4 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
Which direction (homogeneous or heterogeneous) does the centurion command system work with?
Previous to the Late Roman legion a centurion ordinarius commanded a century, but in the Late Roman legion, I have an ordinarius as capable of commanding a century but he is also the maniple commander and that is why I believe the title of centurion has been omitted for the Late Roman legion.
ValentinianVictrix wrote:
Vegetius...had access to works now sadly lost to us and he must have got his figures from those... it may be how they looked up to the time Diocletian and Constantine reformed the army.
I am 100 percent positive the 6000 man legion of Vegetius existed and prepared to die in a ditch in support of the Vegetius legion.
How do you find that to be the case?
The legion still had centuries, which could cause the confusion. At present I have Fatih Ohnur’s list of Lydus, Vegetius and the Perge fragments and there is no listing for the centurion. It could be Ohnur’s list is incomplete but I will need time to determine if that is the case.
Nathan wrote:
The word centurio survives into Greek, as I've mentioned, and references elsewhere strongly suggest that the ordinarius was a centurion (if, perhaps initially, a more senior one).
I agree the centurion ordinarius was a more senior centurion and I believe one of his responsibilities was to create intervals in the battleline. That is why there are only a set number of them in a legion.
Nathan wrote:
Since decani are only mentioned by Vegetius, I think, and he lists them separately to ordinarii/centenarii, I don't see any reason to conflate these roles.
Whether it be a centurion or ordinarius, both have under their command a specific number of decani, which is determined by the size of the century. I have found that the actual number of a legion must end in two zeros. Without Vegetius’ decani organisation of 10:1 the legion does not end in double zeros.
There are two century organisations in a legion, the heterogeneous century and the homogenous century. The heterogeneous century is horizontally organised and the homogenous century is vertically organised. For example a heterogeneous century of 80 men could be based on the different ages of the troops and would look like this:
age division 1 = 20 men
age division 2 = 20 men
age division 3 = 20 men
age division 4 = 20 men
If the legion has sixty centuries then the legion numbers 4800 men organised into sixty heterogeneous centuries of 80 men. However, by multiplying each age division by 60 centuries, the result is:
age division 1 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
age division 2 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
age division 3 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
age division 4 = 20 men x 60 = 1200
The legion still numbers 4800 men, but what happens if each age division of 1200 men is organised into homogeneous centuries each of 80 men.
age division 1 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
age division 2 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
age division 3 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
age division 4 = 1200 organised into 15 homogeneous centuries of 80 men
Which direction (homogeneous or heterogeneous) does the centurion command system work with?
Previous to the Late Roman legion a centurion ordinarius commanded a century, but in the Late Roman legion, I have an ordinarius as capable of commanding a century but he is also the maniple commander and that is why I believe the title of centurion has been omitted for the Late Roman legion.
ValentinianVictrix wrote:
Vegetius...had access to works now sadly lost to us and he must have got his figures from those... it may be how they looked up to the time Diocletian and Constantine reformed the army.
I am 100 percent positive the 6000 man legion of Vegetius existed and prepared to die in a ditch in support of the Vegetius legion.
