05-02-2015, 02:01 PM
Magister Militum Flavius Aetius wrote:
1. You are correct that the “Camp of Attila” was a Celtic hillfort, probably built in 1st century BC. However it was also used by the Romans at one stage and was originally called ‘Vetus Catalaunum’ or Old Chalons. The name Camp of Attila was given to it under the reign of Napoleon the III in the nineteenth century. On the map I provided on my previous post in the battlefields thread he did have the term 'Lieu-dit' underneath the name Camp of Attila, which is a French toponymic term for a small geographical area bearing a traditional name. The name usually refers to some characteristic of the place, its former use, a past event, etc. Nothing more. It seems to have been a military training site and was used as an ammunition dump during WW1 so it has probably been pounded with artillery and air strikes so it would look a lot different to how it looked way back in 451AD and the river volumes and courses have probably changed a lot as well.
2. In regards to the topography of the area north-west of La Cheppe, although not mountainous, there is a finger extending south-west, hilly, broken ground and possibly more heavily wooded than now (1600 years later) that stretched to the river Suippe to its north making it impossible to flank with a height about 180 metres. During WW1 the area around Richardot’s preferred site for the battlefield was used as an observation point to cover an airfield so it must have dominated the surrounding area which was covered in trenches going by some of the historical photos of the area I saw. So it has seen a bit of action in the past especially WW1.
[attachment=12312]lacheppeelevation.jpg[/attachment]
3. In regards to no Roman roads it sits astride the Roman road that runs from Reims to Toul and a road that Richardot thinks Attila took after retiring from the siege of Orleans to Reims. According to Richardot, Attila decided not to take the road from Reims to Metz but headed southeast on the Reims to Toul Roman road.
[attachment=12313]RomanRoad.jpg[/attachment]
With my rough translation Richardot then thinks that Attila stopped at the edge of the Reims-Toul road about 12km north of Chalons-en-Champagne formerly Chalons-sur-Marne (Durocortorum) in a space which tightens between the Suippe and the Vesle-Noblette tributary. He pitches his camp to the river near a place that the sources call the Catalaunian Fields (Champagne) or Campus Mauriacus. The Campus was identified Mauriacus like the current hamlet Cheppe he assumes that there was a chapel in the fifth century ("Cheppe") for the doomed Saint Maurice (Mauricius/ Mauriacus) . Here, the Roman road crosses the Noblette on a small wooden bridge. The site is well chosen for battle. There is a flat ground in which facilitates maneouvres, besides it adjoins the current military camp Mourmelon. The flanks are secured by rivers. The site Catalaunian fields is located in an area which has historically been fought over countless times. About fifteen km northeast is Valmy and forty km the Argonne massif, with heavy bunkers and shelters built in 1914-1918. Although I don’t know if it was the same site there was a previous battle of Chalons which occurred in 274AD where the Emperor Aurelian defeated Tetricus of the Gallic Empire. Not enough space to cover his dispositions and maps of the battle in this post. 8-)
Quote:The issue is that: 1. The Camp d'Attila is a Celtic Hillfort and 2. The Topography and the lack of Roman roads don't coincide with the sources.Hi Evan just thought I would move this conversation to the right thread and keep the pot boiling on the battle site. I just think Richardot seemed to have done some homework on the lead-up and to the actual battle itself and La Cheppe seems a reasonable candidate and shouldn’t be dismissed out of hand. His book was in French and seeing I don’t speak or read the language, Google Translator had its work cut out but I think I got the gist of what he was trying to say about the battle.
1. You are correct that the “Camp of Attila” was a Celtic hillfort, probably built in 1st century BC. However it was also used by the Romans at one stage and was originally called ‘Vetus Catalaunum’ or Old Chalons. The name Camp of Attila was given to it under the reign of Napoleon the III in the nineteenth century. On the map I provided on my previous post in the battlefields thread he did have the term 'Lieu-dit' underneath the name Camp of Attila, which is a French toponymic term for a small geographical area bearing a traditional name. The name usually refers to some characteristic of the place, its former use, a past event, etc. Nothing more. It seems to have been a military training site and was used as an ammunition dump during WW1 so it has probably been pounded with artillery and air strikes so it would look a lot different to how it looked way back in 451AD and the river volumes and courses have probably changed a lot as well.
2. In regards to the topography of the area north-west of La Cheppe, although not mountainous, there is a finger extending south-west, hilly, broken ground and possibly more heavily wooded than now (1600 years later) that stretched to the river Suippe to its north making it impossible to flank with a height about 180 metres. During WW1 the area around Richardot’s preferred site for the battlefield was used as an observation point to cover an airfield so it must have dominated the surrounding area which was covered in trenches going by some of the historical photos of the area I saw. So it has seen a bit of action in the past especially WW1.
[attachment=12312]lacheppeelevation.jpg[/attachment]
3. In regards to no Roman roads it sits astride the Roman road that runs from Reims to Toul and a road that Richardot thinks Attila took after retiring from the siege of Orleans to Reims. According to Richardot, Attila decided not to take the road from Reims to Metz but headed southeast on the Reims to Toul Roman road.
[attachment=12313]RomanRoad.jpg[/attachment]
With my rough translation Richardot then thinks that Attila stopped at the edge of the Reims-Toul road about 12km north of Chalons-en-Champagne formerly Chalons-sur-Marne (Durocortorum) in a space which tightens between the Suippe and the Vesle-Noblette tributary. He pitches his camp to the river near a place that the sources call the Catalaunian Fields (Champagne) or Campus Mauriacus. The Campus was identified Mauriacus like the current hamlet Cheppe he assumes that there was a chapel in the fifth century ("Cheppe") for the doomed Saint Maurice (Mauricius/ Mauriacus) . Here, the Roman road crosses the Noblette on a small wooden bridge. The site is well chosen for battle. There is a flat ground in which facilitates maneouvres, besides it adjoins the current military camp Mourmelon. The flanks are secured by rivers. The site Catalaunian fields is located in an area which has historically been fought over countless times. About fifteen km northeast is Valmy and forty km the Argonne massif, with heavy bunkers and shelters built in 1914-1918. Although I don’t know if it was the same site there was a previous battle of Chalons which occurred in 274AD where the Emperor Aurelian defeated Tetricus of the Gallic Empire. Not enough space to cover his dispositions and maps of the battle in this post. 8-)
Regards
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
Michael Kerr
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
"You can conquer an empire from the back of a horse but you can't rule it from one"
