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Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall
#22
(08-19-2018, 11:14 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(08-18-2018, 11:29 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: the early works on Saint Patrick telling us he was born in the area of Strathclyde.

How many early works mention that he came from Strathclyde? I can only find one - a 10th-century gloss of the 8th-century hymn of Fiacc, explaining the name Nemthur as Alt Clud, which is in that country.

As I quote in the article: "However there is compelling evidence to locate his birthplace in Strathclyde. For example Turner (1890) says:
Quote:“four of the five perfect lives explicitly state that Saint Patrick was born in Britain; three of them add, in the district of Strathclyde! It is hard to imagine how any one could be so audacious as to reject such a weight of ancient testimonies,"

But even if there is one saying he was born in Strathclyde, there is none saying he was born elsewhere.

Also Thomas (p.310) tells us that any traces of Patrick's activities are "decidedly northern". However, there are also theories that there were "two Patricks" - one northern (Patrick) and one southern

Quote:(from another article) Perhaps some of the problem is that Murphy (1942) suggests that there were two Patricks. If so this may explain why it has been so hard to agree on a single birthplace. Murphy suggests that the first (probably the same as Palladius) came to Ireland around 431 and “made the Barbarous island Christian” and died 457. The second Patrick (and key one for this proposal) continued his predecessor's work in Connacht and:

broke wholly new ground in Ulster, journeying "to outlying regions beyond which no man dwelt, and where never had anyone come to baptize, or ordain clergy, or confirm the people " (Confession, 51 quoted by Murphy P.298)

(08-19-2018, 11:14 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(08-18-2018, 11:29 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: Christians with Roman names may have come to Strathclyde to escape the various persecutions against the Christians.

What persecutions? And why would they have fled to Strathclyde?
The Antonine wall was a former area of Roman colonisation. The Coin evidence shows links with Rome throughout the empire.
And Strathclyde was also likely a "client state". If you read the various accounts, there is a suggestion that there was some form of agreement that if "they" (presumably people south of Antonine wall) were attacked by Caledonians, that they would receive aid to combat them.

The coin evidence and former wall suggest links with Rome - and if as I suggest it was a "Roman are tolerated" area - it would be a place that those wishing to leave the Roman empire would go to.

As for which persecutions. We are told that St.Alban was "traditionally believed to have been beheaded in the Roman city of Verulamium (modern St Albans) sometime during the 3rd or 4th century, and his cult has been celebrated there since ancient times." I think if I were a Christian living in St.Albans at that period I would be considering moving elsewhere.

(08-19-2018, 11:14 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(08-18-2018, 11:29 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: the Gaelic hymn of Fiacc records Nemthur as the birthplace of Saint Patrick and because it was recorded close to the relevant period

But the Confessio, apparently written by Patrick himself, says he came from uico Bannauem taberniae, or Bannaventa burniae, or Bonavem tabernia, or something... So either this unknown place is the same as 'Nemthur' (or 'nem Thur'), or Patrick is lying about his origins, or he forgot where was from... Or 'nem thur' is not his place of origin.
No, it says his Grandfather lived there. It doesn't say he was born there.

(From Howlett: "Confessions of Saint patrick" )
"...had a father a certain man called Calpornius, a deacon, son of Potitus, a Presbyter, who was in the town of Bannaventa Berniae, for he had a little villa nearby, where I conceded capture. In years I was then almost sixteen".
(08-19-2018, 11:14 AM)Nathan Ross Wrote:
(08-18-2018, 11:29 PM)MonsGraupius Wrote: if we accept a variant reading of an inscription at found Mumrills fort, this inscription confirms Mumrills was VOLITANIO

Which inscription is this? I didn't know there was any inscriptional evidence for these place names on the Antonine Wall.
To quote the article (roman-britain.co.uk/nemthur.htm)

Quote:HERCVLI MAGVSAN SACRVM VAL NIGRINVS DVPLI ALAE TVNGRORVM (RIB 2140)

Translating these Roman inscriptions is a bit of an art form as they do not have punctuation and tend to shorten words, sometime abbreviating whole words to one letter. The key to understanding the importance of this inscription is the word "VAL" which is usually thought to be an abbreviation of a name Valerius. This gives the usual translation:

"To holy Hercules Magusan, Valerius Nigrinus, Duplicarius of the [First] Tungrian Wing [dedicates this]."

But, like so many inscriptions there are other, equally valid ways to read this. VAL is usually paired with the following name NIGRINVS to give a name, but another interpretation is that VAL is a name in its own right in the genitive. If so, it goes with the preceding text: HERCVLI MAGVSAN SACRVM VAL and would be translated as: “To holy Hercules Magusan, of VAL...”. As we suspect Mumrills was the VOLITANIO of the Ravenna Cosmography, this inscription can also be read as:

"To holy Hercules Magusan of Volitanio, Nigrinus Duplicarius of the [First] Tungrian Wing [dedicates this]."

I accept it's not perfect - however I've not seen anyone who doesn't suggest Mumrills is Volitanio. So even if you dispute the reading, this name allocation seems to be generally accepted.
Oh the grand oh Duke Suetonius, he had a Roman legion, he galloped rushed down to (a minor settlement called) Londinium then he galloped rushed back again. Londinium Bridge is falling down, falling down ... HOLD IT ... change of plans, we're leaving the bridge for Boudica and galloping rushing north.
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RE: Saint Patrick & Names along the Antonine wall - by MonsGraupius - 08-19-2018, 11:52 AM

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