Ammianus Marcellinus 17.8.2: "[Julian] had the grain allowance for twenty days taken from what was to be consumed in the winter quarters, and baked up to serve for some time; he put this hard-tack (as they commonly call it) on the backs of his willing soldiers..."
Context for quote.
This is not a use of normal marching rations, it refers to setting out for a two month campaign, before the usual campaign season, so no crops in the fields are ripe, fodder also would be in short supply, instead soldiers carry 20 days rations, prob baked into hard tack, to bridge the temporal period between when the general wants to begin his campaign and when the allied crop lands he excepts to maneuver through allow him to use those crops and now available fodder. It all goes wrong ending in a mutiny.
Historia Augusta, Alexander Severus, 2.47.1: "During his campaigns he [Alexander Sev] made such careful provision for the soldiers that they were furnished with supplies at each halting-place and were never compelled to carry food for the usual period of seventeen days, except in the enemy's country. And even then he lightened their burdens by using mules and camels..."
Context for quote.
"From the sixth century to the end of the 19th century, historians had recognized that the Historia Augusta was a flawed and not a particularly reliable source, and since the 20th century modern scholars have tended to treat it with extreme caution." this is the generally held view of the book, in this case one author is using the first author as his source so its actually the same event being reported.
Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, II.17:"how great the labor is of an army on its march... Consider that they carry more than a fortnight's provision, and whatever else they may want; that they carry the burden of the stakes, for as to shield, sword, or helmet, they look on them as no more encumbrance than their own limbs."
Context. Cicero uses cibaria, that is other rations excluding the grain ration.
An Army includes its baggage train, and starts out with months provisions, so he was half right as the Army carries twice what he thinks.
Caesar, Bellum Civ 1.78: [Caesar's legionaries] "had been ordered to bring a twenty-two days' supply [of grain] from Ilerda; the light-armed and auxiliaries had none, since... their bodies were not trained to carry burdens."
Context no its not Caesers legionaries, its his opponents legionaries who began in May with 22 days of grain rations and have run out in July of all rations, and not been resupplied.
Context.
Clearly then no Roman Army that has Aux can march 18mpd and have Aux with them at the end of the march, as the Aux are neither trained to do so, nor logistically supplied to do so as they must make other arangments.
This is the ilerda campaign from 2 May to July, Ilerda was Afranius base of supply, and he left it with 22 days grain rations and ended the campaign by being starved into surrender.
http://faculty.fairfield.edu/rosivach/cl...v.war1.htm
[1.72]Caesar had conceived hopes of ending the affair without an engagement, or without striking a blow, because he had cut off the enemy's supplies.
[1.73]The day following, the generals of his opponents, being alarmed that they had lost all prospect of supplies, and of access to the Ebro, consulted as to what other course they should take. There were two roads, one to Ilerda, if they chose to return, the other to Tarraco, if they should march to it.
[1.78]Afranius's men were distressed in foraging, and procured water with difficulty. The legionary soldiers had a tolerable supply of corn, because they had been ordered to bring from Ilerda sufficient to last twenty-two days; the Spanish and auxiliary forces had none, for they had but few opportunities of procuring any, and their bodies were not accustomed to bear burdens; and therefore a great number of them came over to Caesar every day. Their affairs were under these difficulties; but of the two schemes proposed, the most expedient seemed to be to return to Ilerda, because they had left some corn there; and there they hoped to decide on a plan for their future conduct. Tarraco lay at a greater distance; and in such a space they knew affairs might admit of many changes. Their design having met with approbation, they set out from their camp. Caesar having sent forward his cavalry, to annoy and retard their rear, followed close after with his legions. Not a moment passed in which their rear was not engaged with our horse.
[1.81]Then indeed, not having opportunity either to choose a convenient position for their camp, or to march forward, they were obliged to halt, and to encamp at a distance from water, and on ground naturally unfavorable. /Snip/
Hereupon, urged by want of fodder, that they might be the readier for a march, they killed all their baggage cattle.
[1.84]At length, beset on all sides, their cattle having been four days without fodder, and having no water, wood, or corn, they beg a conference; and that, if possible, in a place remote from the soldiers.
[1.87]Caesar promised to supply them with corn from the present time till they arrived at the river Var.
He had 5 legions to surrender, so if they start at full strength, 25000*2.2*22= 1210000lbs
Legions carry 15 lbs each 375000lb
Legion non coms carry 6000*30= 180000, total 555000lbs, leaving mules to carry, 655000lbs, so tahst 3000 mules, 600 fully laden mules a legion.
When allies are told to supply provision, its for a range of numbers but never greater than 30 days.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text...026:book=9
After having been most kindly and hospitably received, he was requested to inform the Romans that thirty days' provision would be ready for them if they came into that district, and the Camertine soldiery would he prepared to act under their orders.
If its hard tack not so much, but if its all rations then its impossible and has ben to be so for some time.
See pages 446
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ukXa...vy&f=false
Context for quote.
This is not a use of normal marching rations, it refers to setting out for a two month campaign, before the usual campaign season, so no crops in the fields are ripe, fodder also would be in short supply, instead soldiers carry 20 days rations, prob baked into hard tack, to bridge the temporal period between when the general wants to begin his campaign and when the allied crop lands he excepts to maneuver through allow him to use those crops and now available fodder. It all goes wrong ending in a mutiny.
Historia Augusta, Alexander Severus, 2.47.1: "During his campaigns he [Alexander Sev] made such careful provision for the soldiers that they were furnished with supplies at each halting-place and were never compelled to carry food for the usual period of seventeen days, except in the enemy's country. And even then he lightened their burdens by using mules and camels..."
Context for quote.
"From the sixth century to the end of the 19th century, historians had recognized that the Historia Augusta was a flawed and not a particularly reliable source, and since the 20th century modern scholars have tended to treat it with extreme caution." this is the generally held view of the book, in this case one author is using the first author as his source so its actually the same event being reported.
Cicero, Tusculan Disputations, II.17:"how great the labor is of an army on its march... Consider that they carry more than a fortnight's provision, and whatever else they may want; that they carry the burden of the stakes, for as to shield, sword, or helmet, they look on them as no more encumbrance than their own limbs."
Context. Cicero uses cibaria, that is other rations excluding the grain ration.
An Army includes its baggage train, and starts out with months provisions, so he was half right as the Army carries twice what he thinks.
Caesar, Bellum Civ 1.78: [Caesar's legionaries] "had been ordered to bring a twenty-two days' supply [of grain] from Ilerda; the light-armed and auxiliaries had none, since... their bodies were not trained to carry burdens."
Context no its not Caesers legionaries, its his opponents legionaries who began in May with 22 days of grain rations and have run out in July of all rations, and not been resupplied.
Context.
Clearly then no Roman Army that has Aux can march 18mpd and have Aux with them at the end of the march, as the Aux are neither trained to do so, nor logistically supplied to do so as they must make other arangments.
This is the ilerda campaign from 2 May to July, Ilerda was Afranius base of supply, and he left it with 22 days grain rations and ended the campaign by being starved into surrender.
http://faculty.fairfield.edu/rosivach/cl...v.war1.htm
[1.72]Caesar had conceived hopes of ending the affair without an engagement, or without striking a blow, because he had cut off the enemy's supplies.
[1.73]The day following, the generals of his opponents, being alarmed that they had lost all prospect of supplies, and of access to the Ebro, consulted as to what other course they should take. There were two roads, one to Ilerda, if they chose to return, the other to Tarraco, if they should march to it.
[1.78]Afranius's men were distressed in foraging, and procured water with difficulty. The legionary soldiers had a tolerable supply of corn, because they had been ordered to bring from Ilerda sufficient to last twenty-two days; the Spanish and auxiliary forces had none, for they had but few opportunities of procuring any, and their bodies were not accustomed to bear burdens; and therefore a great number of them came over to Caesar every day. Their affairs were under these difficulties; but of the two schemes proposed, the most expedient seemed to be to return to Ilerda, because they had left some corn there; and there they hoped to decide on a plan for their future conduct. Tarraco lay at a greater distance; and in such a space they knew affairs might admit of many changes. Their design having met with approbation, they set out from their camp. Caesar having sent forward his cavalry, to annoy and retard their rear, followed close after with his legions. Not a moment passed in which their rear was not engaged with our horse.
[1.81]Then indeed, not having opportunity either to choose a convenient position for their camp, or to march forward, they were obliged to halt, and to encamp at a distance from water, and on ground naturally unfavorable. /Snip/
Hereupon, urged by want of fodder, that they might be the readier for a march, they killed all their baggage cattle.
[1.84]At length, beset on all sides, their cattle having been four days without fodder, and having no water, wood, or corn, they beg a conference; and that, if possible, in a place remote from the soldiers.
[1.87]Caesar promised to supply them with corn from the present time till they arrived at the river Var.
He had 5 legions to surrender, so if they start at full strength, 25000*2.2*22= 1210000lbs
Legions carry 15 lbs each 375000lb
Legion non coms carry 6000*30= 180000, total 555000lbs, leaving mules to carry, 655000lbs, so tahst 3000 mules, 600 fully laden mules a legion.
When allies are told to supply provision, its for a range of numbers but never greater than 30 days.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text...026:book=9
After having been most kindly and hospitably received, he was requested to inform the Romans that thirty days' provision would be ready for them if they came into that district, and the Camertine soldiery would he prepared to act under their orders.
(10-12-2021, 01:57 PM)Mark Hygate Wrote: In short - 17 days food and fodder is an enormous weight. How could a soldier carry it - when he's always got some 60lbs of other things...?
If its hard tack not so much, but if its all rations then its impossible and has ben to be so for some time.
See pages 446
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ukXa...vy&f=false
