09-21-2005, 09:04 AM
P. Lilius Frugius Simius
I think perhaps you are overestimating the support fleet needed by the triremes. The Athenian expedition to Sicily in 415 amounted to some 134 Triremes, and required only 30 cargo ships.
I’d be cautious about projecting a deme organization onto the navy. In the first case, the men manning the navy would almost assuredly not be drawn equally from all over Attica. It seems more likely to me that the Piraeus and perhaps Sounion (where Athens had settled and enfranchised exiled democratic refugees from Aigina around 480 BC) would have provided the vast majority of the naval manpower. More importantly naval organization seems rather to have been flexible and up to the discretion of first the assembly and then the generals in command. Secondly, and unlike the army it is very much more likely that metrics would have represented a key part of the navy. It is also worth pointing out there is no hint of a deme based system in any of the surviving navy records from Athens.
If you don’t mind why me asking why do you think the trierachos ‘lost power’, in what why? They certainly retained legal and economic responsibility for the ship they commanded for the duration of the Athenian democracy. Did they relay on professional helmsmen/captains (kybernetes) to make key sailing/fighting decisions in 430 BC sure, but don’t see any difference from 480 or 470 BC here.
I think perhaps you are overestimating the support fleet needed by the triremes. The Athenian expedition to Sicily in 415 amounted to some 134 Triremes, and required only 30 cargo ships.
Quote: How? Let's suppose that the navy organized itself, internally, in small squadrons of some 10 ships. Why 10? Well, Athens provided some 100 ships to the Egyptian Expedition, and there were 10 demei (tribes) n Athens, and they did manage their army by demos (at this time, 460BCE, the trierarchies had lost most of its power) and they did so for the phalanx in Marathon, each taxis was formed by a tribe. It's not clear how they did, and I'm still researching it, but, well, it looks reasonable.
I’d be cautious about projecting a deme organization onto the navy. In the first case, the men manning the navy would almost assuredly not be drawn equally from all over Attica. It seems more likely to me that the Piraeus and perhaps Sounion (where Athens had settled and enfranchised exiled democratic refugees from Aigina around 480 BC) would have provided the vast majority of the naval manpower. More importantly naval organization seems rather to have been flexible and up to the discretion of first the assembly and then the generals in command. Secondly, and unlike the army it is very much more likely that metrics would have represented a key part of the navy. It is also worth pointing out there is no hint of a deme based system in any of the surviving navy records from Athens.
If you don’t mind why me asking why do you think the trierachos ‘lost power’, in what why? They certainly retained legal and economic responsibility for the ship they commanded for the duration of the Athenian democracy. Did they relay on professional helmsmen/captains (kybernetes) to make key sailing/fighting decisions in 430 BC sure, but don’t see any difference from 480 or 470 BC here.
Paul Klos
\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
\'One day when I fly with my hands -
up down the sky,
like a bird\'
