11-10-2005, 05:31 PM
Thankyou, thankyou- no autographs please 
Seriously though, my first question is how could James know that the linen was soaked in glue as opposed to what I suggested? I doubt very much that there would be any definitive way to distinguish one from the other. In both cases the fabric is saturated, so should appear essentially the same. I wonder if its simply a postulation on his part and having never worked with hide glue himself, he doesn't realize that the idea isn't particularly practical. He might also have meant that the fabrick was saturated and just chose the word soaked to indicate that as opposed to intending to suggest an actual method of manufacture.
Does he happen to mention how much sinew is in the glue, its density on the linen or even how he knows it's sinew and not just hide source contaminant in the glue (hide fibers getting in when the glue is being made)? Saying its sinew should mean he proved thats what it was, but one has to bear in mind that hide is fiberous too, and hide glue comes from hides...
As for making a large batch of glue and dunking the fabric, well as I said, I think that would be a REALLY messy affair and might turn out to be very difficult. Hide glue is very sticky on the hands and where it's liquid at 70C, it gels at around 40C, which it reaches fairly quickly once its out of the pot and in the air. You'd need to wear something disposable, gloves and either sock you don't like or some kind of foot covering, set up a big tarp to catch the dripping glue, you certainly wouldn't want to take long letting the excess glue drip off, and you'd have to position the scutum in such a way as to be able to lay the fabric on straight on the first go- before the glue gels. That's fine for the front, since that has a smooth surface, but the back with the stiffeners?
If you still want to try it, I'd think you'll need more than the 500g of glue I mentioned- I used that much brushing- and I'd thin it out a little more than 2.5:1 too. A good 'pot' for doing the dunking would probably be one of those long narrow wallpaper soaking trays- if you can suspend that in some hot water, you can prepare the glue on the stove, then pour it into the wallpaper tray and it should stay liquid while you use it. You don't want the glue to start gelling in the tray afterall.
You wouldn't actually necessarily need to add the rawhide while the glue on the facing linen is still wet- hide glue sticks to itself as well as to anything else so you can just brush on another coat later and glue on the rawhide. Now usually, rawhide is used wet so one can form it, but when I was experimenting with the glue, I found that trying to glue lightly dampened pieces of wood didn't work at all. I'd certainly recommend that you test the glue on a small piece of rawhide to determine how it works before you go for the full-size piece. You may have to form it on the scutum wet first, let it dry and glue it on then. Given that's what it's made from, as I understand it hide glue LOVES rawhide, so it should glue up nicely.
The sinew fibers are interesting, I agree, but if I could be sure that James accurately identified them as sinew and just how much was there, I'd be able to wrap my mind around the purpose a little better. As I wrote before, unless it's an even layer of longish fibers, I just don't see the point. A small amount of sinew fibers isn't going to do much...
You're right that the issue of them clumping would be major if you brush on the glue and this might lessen a fair bit with the dunking method- although you'd have to be careful not to introduce clumps when you smooth the linen out.
Battle damage would definitely give your suctum more character
I'm really curious to hear how it all works our for you!
Matt
Seriously though, my first question is how could James know that the linen was soaked in glue as opposed to what I suggested? I doubt very much that there would be any definitive way to distinguish one from the other. In both cases the fabric is saturated, so should appear essentially the same. I wonder if its simply a postulation on his part and having never worked with hide glue himself, he doesn't realize that the idea isn't particularly practical. He might also have meant that the fabrick was saturated and just chose the word soaked to indicate that as opposed to intending to suggest an actual method of manufacture.
Does he happen to mention how much sinew is in the glue, its density on the linen or even how he knows it's sinew and not just hide source contaminant in the glue (hide fibers getting in when the glue is being made)? Saying its sinew should mean he proved thats what it was, but one has to bear in mind that hide is fiberous too, and hide glue comes from hides...
As for making a large batch of glue and dunking the fabric, well as I said, I think that would be a REALLY messy affair and might turn out to be very difficult. Hide glue is very sticky on the hands and where it's liquid at 70C, it gels at around 40C, which it reaches fairly quickly once its out of the pot and in the air. You'd need to wear something disposable, gloves and either sock you don't like or some kind of foot covering, set up a big tarp to catch the dripping glue, you certainly wouldn't want to take long letting the excess glue drip off, and you'd have to position the scutum in such a way as to be able to lay the fabric on straight on the first go- before the glue gels. That's fine for the front, since that has a smooth surface, but the back with the stiffeners?
If you still want to try it, I'd think you'll need more than the 500g of glue I mentioned- I used that much brushing- and I'd thin it out a little more than 2.5:1 too. A good 'pot' for doing the dunking would probably be one of those long narrow wallpaper soaking trays- if you can suspend that in some hot water, you can prepare the glue on the stove, then pour it into the wallpaper tray and it should stay liquid while you use it. You don't want the glue to start gelling in the tray afterall.
You wouldn't actually necessarily need to add the rawhide while the glue on the facing linen is still wet- hide glue sticks to itself as well as to anything else so you can just brush on another coat later and glue on the rawhide. Now usually, rawhide is used wet so one can form it, but when I was experimenting with the glue, I found that trying to glue lightly dampened pieces of wood didn't work at all. I'd certainly recommend that you test the glue on a small piece of rawhide to determine how it works before you go for the full-size piece. You may have to form it on the scutum wet first, let it dry and glue it on then. Given that's what it's made from, as I understand it hide glue LOVES rawhide, so it should glue up nicely.
The sinew fibers are interesting, I agree, but if I could be sure that James accurately identified them as sinew and just how much was there, I'd be able to wrap my mind around the purpose a little better. As I wrote before, unless it's an even layer of longish fibers, I just don't see the point. A small amount of sinew fibers isn't going to do much...
You're right that the issue of them clumping would be major if you brush on the glue and this might lessen a fair bit with the dunking method- although you'd have to be careful not to introduce clumps when you smooth the linen out.
Battle damage would definitely give your suctum more character
I'm really curious to hear how it all works our for you!
Matt
See FABRICA ROMANORVM Recreations in the Marketplace for custom helmets, armour, swords and more!
