02-20-2004, 07:55 PM
Frank,<br>
I have read several places that Tolkien was a "Catholic Humanist". I guess that means someone born into the catholic faith, though not a particular believer in it. I personally cannot imagine him a Christian at all, for despite his great talent, he failed to promote his supposed faith in any of his books that I know of. Instead, his books take place in a time before Christ, with no mention of Jehovah/God. Yet it takes place in our world for the 'good' humans are Anglo-Saxon speaking Germanic supermen prevailing over the swarthy and totally evil untermensch "Easterlings and Southerners".<br>
<br>
If the standard Biblical Hell truly exists (although I have a different notion), I can imagine Tolkien there, for who if anyone is most responsible for the whole Dungeons and Dragons/New Age/Sorcery etc. craze? His popular books clearly were the catalyst, and unquestionably this stuff, attractive as it it, has driven innumerable people, particularly children, away from Christianity, for better or worse.<br>
<br>
So you are a Catholic and don't believe in dragons? They are mentioned throughout the Bible, and my research indicates they are the common name for those Biblical creatures known as Cherubim, Seraphim and Destroyers. If not dragons per se, they are clearly a form of 'flying Serpent-like creature', large enough for 'God' to ride on their backs, like the Bible says. Or are Catholics more selective of what passages in the Bible are 'true' and which are not? I have heard once of a Catholic Priest who claimed throughout his studies he was never required to read the Bible, and once he finally did, became an evangelical Christian. You see, in the Bible, people can have their "Dungeons and Dragons" without the Godless Middle Earth of Tolkien.<br>
<br>
Crispus,<br>
Of course I have read Beowulf, it is probably the best window we have into the violent and superstitious world of the dark age Germanic warrior there is. It is amusing to see how people love to analyse other people's art and literature, it is even a profession for some. One of my favorite episodes of 60 Minutes is the one were some great art critic explained all of the "hidden meanings and symbolism", in some guy's painting, and then they talked to the artist himself who said there was no symbolism and hidden meanings in his work at all, he just "whacked it out to make some money". All of this analysis of Beowulf could equally be nonsense. Beowulf's kingdom was real, we know some of the people mentioned in the story were real. It is very possible this is simply the retelling of 'real' events, exaggerated by the dark age germanic witnesses to it.<br>
These people's whole lives revolved around raiding and killing their neighbors, so let's say Beowulf and his band went on a typical raid and he met a very ignominious death, maybe he was stabbed to death by a mere worman he was trying to rape, for example.<br>
Naturally his trusted warriors aren't going to say what really happened, they'd invent some @#%$ and bull story of a more heroic death, like he 'slew a dragon' to make the folks back home feel better over his loss. Over the years, the story became more and more embellished to its final form.<br>
<br>
Or if we go the 'symbolic meaning approach', this could have been a Christian morality story, for being killed/devoured by a dragon symbolized going to hell. Beowulf could have lived, and still saved his people simply by returning the stolen cup, for the author made the point that dragon molested no one prior to the cup's theft. Beowulf's greed got the best of him, therefore God allowed the dragon to kill him, and his whole kingdom was destroyed by the Swedes without his leadership. This makes more sense to me than your version. I suspect though we are both somewhat right, it began as a Pagan Germanic 'hero' story that evolved to a Christian morality one. Many researchers believe the Grendel episode is from a different author than the dragon sequence, and possibly then, originally a different 'hero' altogether.<br>
<br>
Yes, I knew he was Glob, but it was a typo. Thanks though.<br>
<br>
Valamber,<br>
<br>
I do not feel spiritually uplifted by Tolkien. I only see these stories' evil, seemingly racist underbelly, where German-speaking Nordic heroes are unbelievably good, and the darker skinned peoples of all points further south or east are unbelievably bad, without a single reedeeming quality, and fit only to be slaughtered. Tolkien was a product of those times when these were popular concepts. But not only are these ideas sinister in our more enlightened times, but they are also terribly unrealistic. It is like the old B westerns where anyone wearing a dark hat is bad. In Middle Earth, the bad guys wear the dark skin and don't speak German. So despite his impressive work with the languages, the geneology, etc, that gives his fantasy world much more depth than perhaps any other writer's, it is all for naught when the Anglo saxon good guys are simply too good, and the untermensch are so incredibly bad that it literally becomes a ridiculous satire. Apparently, many people cannot see this, but even the anonymous dark ages germanic mind that conceived Beowulf, gave a principal villain, the Mother of Grendel, far more compassion than any of the evil, dark skinned 'cannon fodder' that inhabited middle earth. They are no more than the digital targets to be slaughtered in their thousands in today's asinine video games. It is downright stupid and if such a transparent thing had been written by anyone less clever than Tolkien, it would have been forgotten long ago.<br>
<br>
And as I said before, Tolkien's clear motive behind his whole fantasy world was to give his Germanic heroes of middle earth a ficticious, advanced civilization and superior culture he believed his real German ancestors so richly deserved, though archaelogy had proven were incredibly backward and primitive compared to the advanced civilizations of the classical world who became the evil Southerners of his stories. <br>
<br>
But I agree he was an excellent writer, and it is a shame he did not write more stories like Farmer Giles of Hamm, which doesn't take place in the Germanic Never-Never Land that is Middle Earth, but in Medieval Britain, and like the popular film, "Shrek", was virtually a satire of the kind of fairy tale nonsense that the rampant Tolkien addicts take far too seriously.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
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<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielspeterson>Daniel S Peterson</A> at: 2/21/04 6:03 pm<br></i>
I have read several places that Tolkien was a "Catholic Humanist". I guess that means someone born into the catholic faith, though not a particular believer in it. I personally cannot imagine him a Christian at all, for despite his great talent, he failed to promote his supposed faith in any of his books that I know of. Instead, his books take place in a time before Christ, with no mention of Jehovah/God. Yet it takes place in our world for the 'good' humans are Anglo-Saxon speaking Germanic supermen prevailing over the swarthy and totally evil untermensch "Easterlings and Southerners".<br>
<br>
If the standard Biblical Hell truly exists (although I have a different notion), I can imagine Tolkien there, for who if anyone is most responsible for the whole Dungeons and Dragons/New Age/Sorcery etc. craze? His popular books clearly were the catalyst, and unquestionably this stuff, attractive as it it, has driven innumerable people, particularly children, away from Christianity, for better or worse.<br>
<br>
So you are a Catholic and don't believe in dragons? They are mentioned throughout the Bible, and my research indicates they are the common name for those Biblical creatures known as Cherubim, Seraphim and Destroyers. If not dragons per se, they are clearly a form of 'flying Serpent-like creature', large enough for 'God' to ride on their backs, like the Bible says. Or are Catholics more selective of what passages in the Bible are 'true' and which are not? I have heard once of a Catholic Priest who claimed throughout his studies he was never required to read the Bible, and once he finally did, became an evangelical Christian. You see, in the Bible, people can have their "Dungeons and Dragons" without the Godless Middle Earth of Tolkien.<br>
<br>
Crispus,<br>
Of course I have read Beowulf, it is probably the best window we have into the violent and superstitious world of the dark age Germanic warrior there is. It is amusing to see how people love to analyse other people's art and literature, it is even a profession for some. One of my favorite episodes of 60 Minutes is the one were some great art critic explained all of the "hidden meanings and symbolism", in some guy's painting, and then they talked to the artist himself who said there was no symbolism and hidden meanings in his work at all, he just "whacked it out to make some money". All of this analysis of Beowulf could equally be nonsense. Beowulf's kingdom was real, we know some of the people mentioned in the story were real. It is very possible this is simply the retelling of 'real' events, exaggerated by the dark age germanic witnesses to it.<br>
These people's whole lives revolved around raiding and killing their neighbors, so let's say Beowulf and his band went on a typical raid and he met a very ignominious death, maybe he was stabbed to death by a mere worman he was trying to rape, for example.<br>
Naturally his trusted warriors aren't going to say what really happened, they'd invent some @#%$ and bull story of a more heroic death, like he 'slew a dragon' to make the folks back home feel better over his loss. Over the years, the story became more and more embellished to its final form.<br>
<br>
Or if we go the 'symbolic meaning approach', this could have been a Christian morality story, for being killed/devoured by a dragon symbolized going to hell. Beowulf could have lived, and still saved his people simply by returning the stolen cup, for the author made the point that dragon molested no one prior to the cup's theft. Beowulf's greed got the best of him, therefore God allowed the dragon to kill him, and his whole kingdom was destroyed by the Swedes without his leadership. This makes more sense to me than your version. I suspect though we are both somewhat right, it began as a Pagan Germanic 'hero' story that evolved to a Christian morality one. Many researchers believe the Grendel episode is from a different author than the dragon sequence, and possibly then, originally a different 'hero' altogether.<br>
<br>
Yes, I knew he was Glob, but it was a typo. Thanks though.<br>
<br>
Valamber,<br>
<br>
I do not feel spiritually uplifted by Tolkien. I only see these stories' evil, seemingly racist underbelly, where German-speaking Nordic heroes are unbelievably good, and the darker skinned peoples of all points further south or east are unbelievably bad, without a single reedeeming quality, and fit only to be slaughtered. Tolkien was a product of those times when these were popular concepts. But not only are these ideas sinister in our more enlightened times, but they are also terribly unrealistic. It is like the old B westerns where anyone wearing a dark hat is bad. In Middle Earth, the bad guys wear the dark skin and don't speak German. So despite his impressive work with the languages, the geneology, etc, that gives his fantasy world much more depth than perhaps any other writer's, it is all for naught when the Anglo saxon good guys are simply too good, and the untermensch are so incredibly bad that it literally becomes a ridiculous satire. Apparently, many people cannot see this, but even the anonymous dark ages germanic mind that conceived Beowulf, gave a principal villain, the Mother of Grendel, far more compassion than any of the evil, dark skinned 'cannon fodder' that inhabited middle earth. They are no more than the digital targets to be slaughtered in their thousands in today's asinine video games. It is downright stupid and if such a transparent thing had been written by anyone less clever than Tolkien, it would have been forgotten long ago.<br>
<br>
And as I said before, Tolkien's clear motive behind his whole fantasy world was to give his Germanic heroes of middle earth a ficticious, advanced civilization and superior culture he believed his real German ancestors so richly deserved, though archaelogy had proven were incredibly backward and primitive compared to the advanced civilizations of the classical world who became the evil Southerners of his stories. <br>
<br>
But I agree he was an excellent writer, and it is a shame he did not write more stories like Farmer Giles of Hamm, which doesn't take place in the Germanic Never-Never Land that is Middle Earth, but in Medieval Britain, and like the popular film, "Shrek", was virtually a satire of the kind of fairy tale nonsense that the rampant Tolkien addicts take far too seriously.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=danielspeterson>Daniel S Peterson</A> at: 2/21/04 6:03 pm<br></i>
