02-26-2004, 07:36 PM
Robert,<br>
Yes I think there is a deal of truth to the "enviromental angle" of Tolkien. This may be another reason he loved the ancient Germans so much -- tree worshippers. It has also been said Tolkien would have likely been swept under the rug and forgotten in the late fifties, had it not been for the "pot smoking hippies" of the sixties who discovered it and thought it was so insanely counter culture that they adopted it as their own. They then, became the teachers who forced this stuff down the throats on the next generations as 'great literature'.<br>
In this respect Tolkien's fables are much like modern art, judged at face value by the average man, it is often dismissed as so much nonsense, much as much of what we call modern art. In both cases it takes an 'expert critic' to tell people the fairy tale or the big paint spot are the 'works of genius'.<br>
<br>
Crispus,<br>
As Tim pointed out, great literary minds have identified Tolkien's works as "Nazi Posh", which I agree is somewhat unfair, but clearly indicates many, many people believed he was a blatant Germanophile, (to such length that he strove to have all latin purged from the English language.) Even the most sympathetic biographers admit he did poorly in the classics and his true love was the German languages and their lore. Had it not been for the influennce of Beowulf, it is unlikely Tolkien would have ever written anything resembling fantasy. Recall how distressed he became because the evil Nazis were embracing HIS Nordic heroes. But the glories of his supermen were not his only love, for the hobbits clearly suggest English country characters, and we see these types again in what I think is his best work (because he has left middle earth, and does not take his nonsense so seriously in it), Farmer Giles and the other country folk of that tale. Of course, those devotees who have literally made LOTR their 'religion' seem to hate this story the most, because even the Master did not take it seriously, but nearly a satire of the others, much like the Star Wars nuts couldn't tolerate the comic relief antics of Jar Jar that blasphemed their 'religion'. Remember too, that WWII and its Nazi horrors were still in recent memory when LOTR appeared. It was sensible that he 'water down' his Germanic mania a bit, with lovable British country characters in the Hobbits, though the rampant nordism was still obvious to many.<br>
But yes, I believe these are mere 'fairy tales' as in Children's stories. Tolkien admitted as much regarding the Hobbit, though it has been transformed into holy writ now by the fanatics. In both stories the 'happy endings' are achieved in such simplistic 'cop out' ways, they can only be satisfying and meaningful for small children or the most ignorant medieval peasant. The victory over Smaug was achieved only because of a 'talking bird' that happened to be there, the victory over Sauron, because this evil mastermind, with his unlimited resources in manpower (not to mention orcpower), did not leave even a handful of walking wounded to guard the one place in all of Middle Earth in which he was vulnerable. These have got to be two of the lamest and most simplistic endings of any stories, let alone so called "epics". I found it interesting that the Indians (I go there frenquently to make armor) were not very impressed with these books or films. But the reason is obvious, they are judging the stories at "face value" rather than with preconceived notions that the writer was a genius, as English and American kids in their formative years have been, bombarded with praise by ex hippy teachers and professors who read Tolkien while high on drugs which evidently made the stories seem better than they really were.<br>
<br>
Hadrianus, get over it. Tolkien found the word "Orc" (coincidentally also a fantasy monster) in the Medieval stories that were his passion. It's no biggie, he took most of his other characters from those stories too. (Or would you believe he also invented dwarves, elves, trolls and dragons?) Be thrilled that he at least added "hobbits" to the world of fantasy characters (not that anyone else dare use them for fear of copyright infringements).<br>
<br>
Tim,<br>
No, the post wasn't just for you, but the conjecture you couldn't resist adding a long trirade was real enough, as you have on every previous occasion when those you idolize are being impugn on RAT, (and not necesarily just by me.) Upon seeing this film I was genuinely disappointed with its cramming of so many fantastic special effects related to ancient warfare, which will trivialize all future 'historical' ancient films, (including yours, if it ever comes to pass). But it is always amusing to read your occasional posts of untethered Germannic hero worship on RAT, just as it is sometimes visiting your site to read the great wisdom of your devotees. I fondly remember the post about how it would be impossible to make your film in the United States, because no mongrel American has the proper shaped head to depict the racially perfect craniums of the master race. Did Dr. Mengele flee to South America as many imagine, or was it Australia?<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
Yes I think there is a deal of truth to the "enviromental angle" of Tolkien. This may be another reason he loved the ancient Germans so much -- tree worshippers. It has also been said Tolkien would have likely been swept under the rug and forgotten in the late fifties, had it not been for the "pot smoking hippies" of the sixties who discovered it and thought it was so insanely counter culture that they adopted it as their own. They then, became the teachers who forced this stuff down the throats on the next generations as 'great literature'.<br>
In this respect Tolkien's fables are much like modern art, judged at face value by the average man, it is often dismissed as so much nonsense, much as much of what we call modern art. In both cases it takes an 'expert critic' to tell people the fairy tale or the big paint spot are the 'works of genius'.<br>
<br>
Crispus,<br>
As Tim pointed out, great literary minds have identified Tolkien's works as "Nazi Posh", which I agree is somewhat unfair, but clearly indicates many, many people believed he was a blatant Germanophile, (to such length that he strove to have all latin purged from the English language.) Even the most sympathetic biographers admit he did poorly in the classics and his true love was the German languages and their lore. Had it not been for the influennce of Beowulf, it is unlikely Tolkien would have ever written anything resembling fantasy. Recall how distressed he became because the evil Nazis were embracing HIS Nordic heroes. But the glories of his supermen were not his only love, for the hobbits clearly suggest English country characters, and we see these types again in what I think is his best work (because he has left middle earth, and does not take his nonsense so seriously in it), Farmer Giles and the other country folk of that tale. Of course, those devotees who have literally made LOTR their 'religion' seem to hate this story the most, because even the Master did not take it seriously, but nearly a satire of the others, much like the Star Wars nuts couldn't tolerate the comic relief antics of Jar Jar that blasphemed their 'religion'. Remember too, that WWII and its Nazi horrors were still in recent memory when LOTR appeared. It was sensible that he 'water down' his Germanic mania a bit, with lovable British country characters in the Hobbits, though the rampant nordism was still obvious to many.<br>
But yes, I believe these are mere 'fairy tales' as in Children's stories. Tolkien admitted as much regarding the Hobbit, though it has been transformed into holy writ now by the fanatics. In both stories the 'happy endings' are achieved in such simplistic 'cop out' ways, they can only be satisfying and meaningful for small children or the most ignorant medieval peasant. The victory over Smaug was achieved only because of a 'talking bird' that happened to be there, the victory over Sauron, because this evil mastermind, with his unlimited resources in manpower (not to mention orcpower), did not leave even a handful of walking wounded to guard the one place in all of Middle Earth in which he was vulnerable. These have got to be two of the lamest and most simplistic endings of any stories, let alone so called "epics". I found it interesting that the Indians (I go there frenquently to make armor) were not very impressed with these books or films. But the reason is obvious, they are judging the stories at "face value" rather than with preconceived notions that the writer was a genius, as English and American kids in their formative years have been, bombarded with praise by ex hippy teachers and professors who read Tolkien while high on drugs which evidently made the stories seem better than they really were.<br>
<br>
Hadrianus, get over it. Tolkien found the word "Orc" (coincidentally also a fantasy monster) in the Medieval stories that were his passion. It's no biggie, he took most of his other characters from those stories too. (Or would you believe he also invented dwarves, elves, trolls and dragons?) Be thrilled that he at least added "hobbits" to the world of fantasy characters (not that anyone else dare use them for fear of copyright infringements).<br>
<br>
Tim,<br>
No, the post wasn't just for you, but the conjecture you couldn't resist adding a long trirade was real enough, as you have on every previous occasion when those you idolize are being impugn on RAT, (and not necesarily just by me.) Upon seeing this film I was genuinely disappointed with its cramming of so many fantastic special effects related to ancient warfare, which will trivialize all future 'historical' ancient films, (including yours, if it ever comes to pass). But it is always amusing to read your occasional posts of untethered Germannic hero worship on RAT, just as it is sometimes visiting your site to read the great wisdom of your devotees. I fondly remember the post about how it would be impossible to make your film in the United States, because no mongrel American has the proper shaped head to depict the racially perfect craniums of the master race. Did Dr. Mengele flee to South America as many imagine, or was it Australia?<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>
