Rome vs Japan

[Magnus]

Ok, first...a Rant.

HOW THE HECK IN THE NAME OF EVERYTHING DID I MISS THIS THREAD!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!!!

Sigh.

Ok.

First...I'll try and stay focused on the original topic.

So, having said that, many of you are under the impression that the katana was the main weapon of use by samurai. It's not. The katana was a sidearm, up until the Tokugawa shogunate's reign of "peace". Right up until that point, samurai primarily used either:

A) Yumi (bow)
B) Yari (spear)
C) Naginata (Polearm)
D) Teppo (Musket/rifle)

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/polearms.htm


Other weapons that were used:
- No-Dachi (BIG Sword for breaking formations and anti-cavalry)
- Nagamaki (Kind of like a falx, used by warrior monks)

http://japantrip.tripod.com/nodachi/kashiwa_tachi.jpg
http://www.dynastyforge.com/products/ph ... i_nagi.jpg

Now let's talk about armour. This scenario is dealing with samurai (not ashigaru), in which case even lower ranking samurai had full sets of do-maru, which were made of lames of steel for the body in the least, and in lower cost armours, some components were 1/4" thick hardened buffalo hide, NOT leather. And almost certainly the "do" or body armour was made of steel plates. All these plates of course were then lacquered with Urushi. This armour was provided for by their Daimyo, who had money, and could afford well built suits, even if considered munitions grade.

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/katchu/katchu.ch01.html

So...now, if you look at the original question, which was a legionary vs 1 samurai, you now have a few options with which to arm your samurai. There's a good chance that the nagimaki and naginata are going to make kindling out of a scutum. That's what they're made for. In which case the legionary is at a severe disadvantage without his shield, as the smaller gladius will have a hard time getting in close to someone with 6-8 feet of reach.

Without his shield, I believe the legionary is lost. In a one-on-one encounter with a samurai in this case, I believe the samurai is going to come out 9 out of 10 times on top. (samurai still has his naginata/nagamaki).

If using the yari which still has at least 2 cutting edges, sometimes 3, it would certainly be more difficult. However, should the Yari become firmly embedded in the scutum, as pila are made to do...chances are the legionary is going to drop his shield. Be tough to use it with a 7 foot spear sticking out of it.

In which case, we're back to a shieldless legionary. My vote is for the samurai again to top the legionary, say....8 times out of 10 in the case of katana vs gladius.

How about a bow? Hard to say...you have to figure out how far apart they're starting from each other....is the samurai a mounted archer? How many arrows? Can he get a lucky shot in past the shield? To me...this one has too many varriables...we'll call that one a draw.

Musket/rifle vs Legionary...hmmmm....if the shot goes through the scutum, will it penetrate the legionary's maille, or segmentata? What if it hits him in an unprotected area, like the arm, lower hips or face/neck? Again, this one depends on the variables...but if the rifeman is a good shot, he has a better than average chance of dropping the legionary before he ever gets close. We also don't know the stopping power of legionary armour vs musketballs, so this one is a hard one to qualify. I'm pretty sure though it would go through the wood of the scutum.

Now, if we take the katana armed samurai vs a legionary with gladius and scutum, the odds are a bit better for the legionary. However, he's still without his massed formations that utilize his comrade's scutum as added protection. He is still out-ranged in terms of attack with his smaller gladius...though not by a lot. Perhaps 6-10 inches, depending on the sword either person wields. This one is a tougher call...however, the samurai seems to hold the advantage. They've fought opponents with shields before, and have the advantage of armour which covers their entire body. Not to mention solid martial arts and constant, constant training to hone these arts. I'd have to say that given the slight advantage in terms of equipment to the samurai, as well as a more refined but varried form of training in combative arts, the samurai would come out on top a lot more than the legionary.

In fact, the one koryu (old school) art that I study, as well as Marcus, Katori Shinto Ryu, has very long, paired kata which are set up almost like a chess game, using blocks and strikes to open up incapacitating strikes to the enemies weaker areas. If I were fighting a Legionary, you can bet I'd be attacking his unarmoured swordarm, legs and face. I don't need to worry about his shield...when he thrusts with that sword, I'm going to take a step back out of his range, and counter-cut. If he tries to bash me with his sheild, I'll use it to my advantage and come around the shield on his shield arm side and cut him in the shield arm, or legs. With the katana's cutting edge, chances are I'd only need one cut to inflict some pretty serious bleeding. Then it's just a matter of time.

Myths:

Katana can't cut through gun barrels. But they can cut through plate to an extent. Run a search on "Kabutowari".

Katana are indestructable.

Ninja are exactly as portrayed by Hollywood.

Western styled swords are indestructable.

Japanese armour is made out of leather and wood.

Samurai never retreated.

Legionarys were "regimental" under their tunica.


Truths

Katana are probably the finest engineered swords in the world.

Ninja (shinobi) were in fact deployed as special forces type units. They're tasks ranged from full out battlefield combat, to espionage, recon, assasination, ambush and other jobs typically performed by modern SAS, GSG-9 and Navy Seal units.

Samurai have changed in every way since their conception to their end.

There is no real way to answer this thread...lol.

______

Anyway, that's my opinion based on some knowledge of both sides of the spectrum.

I think a Legion vs a Samurai army would be pretty interesting, but they were so far apart in terms of technology and era that it's pure speculation, and fruitless to say which one would win.