The transformation of Roman Britain

[Robert Vermaat]

My original post:

one question does occur:
If as many suggest that germanic culture was so attractive that a whole peoples in the British Isles adopted germanic fashions and learnt a completely new language, extremely well; how is it that the Welsh in Wales were able to resist adopting the language or fashions so effectively?

This is becomeing very OT, I'm aware of that... :wink:

There's two theories for that, some apply also to other post-Roman areas outside Britain. But yes, just thinking aloud here:

1) Those in Wales (and at the start, also those in Cumbria and Cornwall of course) had not adapted to all too much Roman culture either, so you could (could) argue that they were less influencable to other influences either.

2) The main differences between English and Wales occurred only later. It is not until the 7th-8th c. that we begin to see a larger gap between 'the English' and 'The Welsh'. The picture is very vague, for sure, mainly due to the lack of written sources before that time, but if it's a correct picture it seems to coincide with the dvelopment of larger kingdoms in England, as well as the development of history as a mean of dynastic confirmation (first in England, shortly followed by Wales).

Maybe that's the time when 'English' and 'Welsh' really became separate languages, with people forced to make a choice between the one or the other. I can imagine that's when Welsh start to move to Welsh-held territories, and identities become polarised. It's the period when Offa's Dyke was built.

It's the Bosnian model. That could also be the time when Welsh word were 'purged' from the Middle English language, like Croats do with Serbian words and Flemish do with French words?

Like I said, just thinking aloud here.

I am not sure what you mean by either of these two statements; are you saying that at some time there was no difference between the English and the Welsh and that the two languages were identical?

My bad, I meant to write 'separate peoples' but I wrote another word..
Of course Welsh and English are totally different. No, I meant to suggest that British and Saxon had lived in the same communities until then, or maybe British communities next to Saxon communities. But not all Saxons behind a sharply divided frontier, and the British on the other side. At some point conflict starts and polarisation grows, driving the British to a choice: become English or leave.
This is also the time when the first English sources are written down, and you see a strange mix of the words used for British: sometimes British, sometimes Welsh, sometimes even Britwelsh. The laws of Ine of Wessex are also from this period and could reflect a changing social situation, where those recognised as British (Welsh) are judged to be 'less' in legal matters.

The theory is that such a model would explain why there are so few Celtic words in English - they could have been purged, as Croats do with Serb words, Flemish do with French words, and The French government recntly suggested was done with English words. Of course, some words remain because they are no longer recognised as Celtic. Some English words seem to have ended up in Modern Welsh, too.

But like I said, this is a theory - so shoot at it.